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Old 02-20-2012, 03:16 PM   #196
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In the Dutch 1/10 competition we used a standard engine, Nova N12T1, for the first time this year.
We already had a sort of beginner class and a more advanced/pro class.
It was decided to introduce a standard engine in the beginner/non-sponsored class to save costs and create an equal playing field. Together with the Nova distributer we made a great deal for the drivers, 131 for an engine plus exhaust set or 88 for just the engine.
At the same time this was introduced to the club races of one of the Dutch clubs. Another reason to introduce this concept to this club was because of the noise. The Nova N12T1 with the 2601 exhaust makes around 6dB less compared to my Orcan engine/exhaust combo.

In both competitions it has been a success, the racing became much closer and all the cars were very equally matched in terms of straight line speed. No one attempted/was caught cheating with the engines.

I think it would be a good thing if the B euros was to be converted to a 'stock' championship, both in 1/10 and 1/8. These championships were created for the privateer who didn't want to compete with the sponsored drivers who have bigger budgets and access to better equipment. Currently this is not the case at these B championships.
However you should always keep a class/championship were all the equipment can be decided by the driver, for some (me included) the technical part of the hobby is a very important part.
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Old 02-20-2012, 03:20 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS Motorsport View Post
In the Dutch 1/10 competition we used a standard engine, Nova N12T1, for the first time this year.
We already had a sort of beginner class and a more advanced/pro class.
It was decided to introduce a standard engine in the beginner/non-sponsored class to save costs and create an equal playing field. Together with the Nova distributer we made a great deal for the drivers, 131 for an engine plus exhaust set or 88 for just the engine.
At the same time this was introduced to the club races of one of the Dutch clubs. Another reason to introduce this concept to this club was because of the noise. The Nova N12T1 with the 2601 exhaust makes around 6dB less compared to my Orcan engine/exhaust combo.

In both competitions it has been a success, the racing became much closer and all the cars were very equally matched in terms of straight line speed. No one attempted/was caught cheating with the engines.

I think it would be a good thing if the B euros was to be converted to a 'stock' championship, both in 1/10 and 1/8. These championships were created for the privateer who didn't want to compete with the sponsored drivers who have bigger budgets and access to better equipment. Currently this is not the case at these B championships.
However you should always keep a class/championship were all the equipment can be decided by the driver, for some (me included) the technical part of the hobby is a very important part.


^^^^ This sounds great^^^^
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Old 02-20-2012, 03:34 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS Motorsport View Post
In the Dutch 1/10 competition we used a standard engine, Nova N12T1, for the first time this year.
We already had a sort of beginner class and a more advanced/pro class.
It was decided to introduce a standard engine in the beginner/non-sponsored class to save costs and create an equal playing field. Together with the Nova distributer we made a great deal for the drivers, 131 for an engine plus exhaust set or 88 for just the engine.
At the same time this was introduced to the club races of one of the Dutch clubs. Another reason to introduce this concept to this club was because of the noise. The Nova N12T1 with the 2601 exhaust makes around 6dB less compared to my Orcan engine/exhaust combo.

In both competitions it has been a success, the racing became much closer and all the cars were very equally matched in terms of straight line speed. No one attempted/was caught cheating with the engines.

I think it would be a good thing if the B euros was to be converted to a 'stock' championship, both in 1/10 and 1/8. These championships were created for the privateer who didn't want to compete with the sponsored drivers who have bigger budgets and access to better equipment. Currently this is not the case at these B championships.
However you should always keep a class/championship were all the equipment can be decided by the driver, for some (me included) the technical part of the hobby is a very important part.
I don't often disagree and everything your say makes sense.

We have this very same class called GT (Gas touring = <1hp) one would assume that the cars will be of relatively the same top speed and performance. This class is now spreading into other states with the STS engine and I really hope the numbers come up and it brings more people into an affordable class of racing.

I knew the champion of this class quite well, he would buy two new engines, lean them out just enough to complete the final and sell them. Then there were others mixing their own fuel, some cars were pulling ten lengths on the straights..

The issues were that if not enough people raced this class, it was difficult to measure how true to <1hp these car were and the arguments started. Ultimately as a newcomer at the time I chose to move to open class to keep out of the scandals.

3 experienced runners from 1/8th classes all bought the same engine when we did as to participate and increase the numbers. At a practice session, we put our cars on track and there wasnt a car length on the straights.

Later in an interclub event, we looked like we were standing still with cars overtaking on the straight on the outside. Needless we all looked at each other shrugged and put our engines into a plastic bag and returned to our own respective classes.

If it's a one engine class, then it should also be the same fuel. If the performance is based on the clutch tuning you can hear the free rev and see how the car accelerates. With the power, the RPM of the engine should remain quite consistent unless seriously over geared.

Please don't take this as a negative, it can work if it is policed well and if there are enough drivers to measure what is the TRUE performance for spec class and what is *cough* odd to put it mildly.
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Old 02-20-2012, 03:42 PM   #199
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Do not get me wrong, the idea of a stock class for sure on club level can be fun and educating (that performance can not be bought) but my question is if a healthy competition without stock rules needs to be bothered with stock rules?

As mentioned in that PDF document it was proposed for the Dutch 1/8 Nomac class which is like the B-group of drivers. This group is very healthy and almost every one has voted against it. If it was putted through without the influence of the drivers I know for sure there was a great lost of drivers.....

And knowing that the top-20 of the EFRA B-EC are just A-drivers I do not think it is gonna happen.....
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Old 02-20-2012, 03:52 PM   #200
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What I would like to see happen is...

Get the top 10 A open drivers in a region to setup a top end A spec chassis and use these engines, pipe and fuel as to set a benchmark of performance.

Anyone exceeding their performance will have something to tell scrutiny!
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Old 02-20-2012, 03:56 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by blis View Post
I don't often disagree and everything your say makes sense.

We have this very same class called GT (Gas touring = <1hp) one would assume that the cars will be of relatively the same top speed and performance. This class is now spreading into other states with the STS engine and I really hope the numbers come up and it brings more people into an affordable class of racing.

I knew the champion of this class quite well, he would buy two new engines, lean them out just enough to complete the final and sell them. Then there were others mixing their own fuel, some cars were pulling ten lengths on the straights..

The issues were that if not enough people raced this class, it was difficult to measure how true to <1hp these car were and the arguments started. Ultimately as a newcomer at the time I chose to move to open class to keep out of the scandals.

3 experienced runners from 1/8th classes all bought the same engine when we did as to participate and increase the numbers. At a practice session, we put our cars on track and there wasnt a car length on the straights.

Later in an interclub event, we looked like we were standing still with cars overtaking on the straight on the outside. Needless we all looked at each other shrugged and put our engines into a plastic bag and returned to our own respective classes.

If it's a one engine class, then it should also be the same fuel. If the performance is based on the clutch tuning you can hear the free rev and see how the car accelerates. With the power, the RPM of the engine should remain quite consistent unless seriously over geared.

Please don't take this as a negative, it can work if it is policed well and if there are enough drivers to measure what is the TRUE performance for spec class and what is *cough* odd to put it mildly.
Is your class a one make/type one or are there various brands allowed?.

With our one type class we already sort of knew what the standard engines were capable of before the season started. We also had some of the advanced/pro drivers test these engines to see what they were capable of.
Anyone who was going faster then the average was closely followed and some engines were opened up and checked.
We didn't experience any differences caused by different fuel types, races were won by Capricorn fuel, Tornado and a very special mix of every fuel available

I really believe a stock class can work in nitro if you stick to a single engine make/type.
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Old 02-20-2012, 04:01 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
Do not get me wrong, the idea of a stock class for sure on club level can be fun and educating (that performance can not be bought) but my question is if a healthy competition without stock rules needs to be bothered with stock rules?

As mentioned in that PDF document it was proposed for the Dutch 1/8 Nomac class which is like the B-group of drivers. This group is very healthy and almost every one has voted against it. If it was putted through without the influence of the drivers I know for sure there was a great lost of drivers.....

And knowing that the top-20 of the EFRA B-EC are just A-drivers I do not think it is gonna happen.....
I agree, the Dutch 1/8 competition doesn't need this spec class.
It needs more spots in the Nomac class for new drivers like me.
However I don't know if every country has such a healthy 1/8 competition?.

The fact that the top 20 of a B-EC are all A drivers is something we should counter, the B championships weren't created with this in mind.
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Old 02-20-2012, 04:37 PM   #203
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Blis you really said what I was thinking about spec classes,in the electric spec classes everyone is just spending way more money than mod racing and obsessed with that 0,001 of ohm the esc dissipates or not having a 100c discharge for a 17.5T motor...So with my 2wd buggy just went mod and glad I did.I'm not in need of more motor and the lipo pack I have is fine.Maybe I should buy a Schepis SM12 Evo4(it's a Sirio Evo4 with a lower pricetag) and be done with it.It will be plenty fast for me so I'll adjust my driving instead of adjusting my equipment to my skill.
This is the schepis I'm talking about
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Old 02-20-2012, 04:54 PM   #204
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How about a maximum lap time?Drivers couldn't drive faster than an established lap time and for those that exceed the set lap time get a penalty.Consistency over outright speed,close racing,pit strategies leaving wallet racing out equation.I think I'm forbidding rear end kicking
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:45 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Francis M. View Post
I'm gonna speak from experience. Electric sedan Is a lot cheaper 1/8th scale and it's not even close. Nitro is still more fun but the expense is just shocking sometimes.
Sorry, I was not speaking from experience. I was just told by someone that runs electric sedan that tires are the same or more expensive than for 1/8th, he said you need a new set every run to be competitive, I may be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
It is how you deal with it.

Must you buy the most expensive engine or is the one that is a tiny bit "slower" fast enough for you? Do you realy need that word "Tuned" engraved in the head? Do you need to true the tires out of the box to 74mm or even smaller or can you drive some trainings laps on a full tire until they are on the right size? Do you need the most expensive fuel which is mostly tearing down the lifespan or can you run with a cheaper more RTR kind of fuel which does perform as well but saves the engine much longer due the more oil?

Realy, with most people going for the best is more in their mind than that they do gain some performance with such choices....

The costs is just how you create it.....
I always run my practice with tires out of the box that way I get a few more runs out of them, then I true them for quals.
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:25 AM   #206
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Down here in Melbourne, Australia we're trialing a "stock" tourer class
I'm going to have a run this weekend in the first round
We've chosen to run the STS 1018 as the price makes it very affordable for those new to it or to those who've got an old tourer lying around
The class should be taken for what it is. A place to cut your teeth or a place to have fun. Who wins is besides the point in such a class. He who learns the most and has the most fun wins
It is definately more enticing for newer people in the knowledge that it's a cheap tool to learn
More people racing = more $ for the clubs and better facilities for us all which can only be a good thing
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:30 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by DS Motorsport View Post
Is your class a one make/type one or are there various brands allowed?.

With our one type class we already sort of knew what the standard engines were capable of before the season started. We also had some of the advanced/pro drivers test these engines to see what they were capable of.
Anyone who was going faster then the average was closely followed and some engines were opened up and checked.
We didn't experience any differences caused by different fuel types, races were won by Capricorn fuel, Tornado and a very special mix of every fuel available

I really believe a stock class can work in nitro if you stick to a single engine make/type.
DS, no it's not one engine class, and there is where a lot of problems emerged. The alternative like EEL monster stated is the one spec engine as they have started in Victoria, if they have one make fuel and pipe then it should really be fair. When the idea of one engine supplier was proposed it was negated by the fact it is unfair on manufacturers and likely to create a monopoly for the supplier hence it also failed.

Without question, running a lower spec HP engine is less expensive as the demands on the car are much less. While it was a great entry point, it was not long before I wanted to step up. I would have to buy three engines per year, they were lesser grade metals, lesser bearings and likely to lose compression quicker. I get much better performance and reliability from better engines, they last longer and I get to enjoy performance beyond our own capability.

I believe that any B Spec driver that is faster than the average of all the A spec drivers times should be revoked from the placings. They should be allowed to enjoy the racing, but these classes were designed to introduce drivers to the sport and not a class for "trophy hunters".

If budget is the true motive then it doesnt matter if they win a trophy or not and they should be welcomed to participate and set a standard of excellent driving for newcomers to learn and enjoy racing with and that's a great thing for the sport.

Most often it's titanium, CF, late A spec chassis and driver with a B Spec engine blowing the doors off newbies. Sure.. do it, but do it for the love of RC, do it to teach the newcomers, demonstrate experience and race-craft and do it for the right reasons.


Then arguments began where some engines were spec'd as 1.05 HP and the rule was < 1HP.
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:35 AM   #208
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How about a maximum lap time?Drivers couldn't drive faster than an established lap time and for those that exceed the set lap time get a penalty.Consistency over outright speed,close racing,pit strategies leaving wallet racing out equation.I think I'm forbidding rear end kicking
30 tooth, Ive witnessed an older gentleman come to a national event with only a couple of sets of tyres, he didnt true them, drove wisely, beat many established racers and proved to me that with experience one can race in premiere class on a budget, perhaps not at the highest levels of performance, but he enjoyed himself. I also agree with setting lap times, get the best A main drivers at a club, set what is an honest fast round, average them and set a standard for the class.
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:40 AM   #209
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i think everone missed my initial point of a "spec Class"

having a blueprinted engine, as roelof said means you have almost no difference in engine performance except for the variables of fuel, tune, quality of build and age of the engine.

a blueprinted engine is not expensive to manufacture as it would be based on simple 2 stroke engine principles. no fancy metals, or crank balancing inserts. just a basic 2 stroke engine design with good quality materials. If a Ling long chinese company wants to make one and they use 30 year old machining tools, so be it, but the reality is most manufacturers can make a half decent engine.

a spec class could be run in tourer or 8th scale. No my suggestion wasn't to kill the high end racing, of course not. the idea is to have a spec racing class. Similar to what DS motorsports said.

You have spec engiens which are manufactured by various companies to a "blueprint". you could also have a spec tyre made to a "blueprint.

you can call this class the Spec class. it can be run worldwide, and it is run either as a seperate event to top class racing or it is a support class running as a "B class". people who do not want to spend big bucks race here. If you are good, or want to go with the big guns, you go to the open class.

Here in Australia we have a sanctioned class called Pullstart it's quite a pathetic attempt to run a "cheap class" as there is only really 1 brand that makes pull starts. it does not attract many people at all. it is, quite frankly, a failure. It's for this reason we need a proper world wide supported "spec class" with blueprinted engines that any brand can manufacture.

Blis, i'm not sure if there is really a need to the top 10 A drivers to:
"Get the top 10 A open drivers in a region to setup a top end A spec chassis and use these engines, pipe and fuel as to set a benchmark of performance.
Anyone exceeding their performance will have something to tell scrutiny!"


the top 10 guys would be in tourer or 8th scale open. This class should remain open. it is the equivalent of the F1's of racing for RC. the top teir classes.

Personally i recon a "Spec class" if supported by all governing bodies world wide would be a great success and a true step below open nitro for 8th and 10th.
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Old 02-21-2012, 07:04 AM   #210
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As mentioned in that PDF document it was proposed for the Dutch 1/8 Nomac class which is like the B-group of drivers. This group is very healthy and almost every one has voted against it. If it was putted through without the influence of the drivers I know for sure there was a great lost of drivers.....
Wise words, maybe the 1/10 section will read this regarding latest proposals i`ve read to be dicided by the board only(NOMAC rules that is).
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