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Old 01-31-2012, 06:36 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by romain_f View Post
Good point Bishop, lighter cars don't break more often, the design is just better!

But let's say an engine running the same RPM on a 1550 g car and a 1700 g, don't you think the engine will last longer on a lighter car?

I don't remember who told me this, but I think it was a suggestion from Robert Pietsch himself
An engine will wear out faster in a lighter car, since it spends more time in high rpm's. And we all know rpm's kill engines. With a lighter car the engine has less resistance to spool up and spends a longer time at higher rpm's since you can accelerate earlier and brake later.

When you limit the size of the exhaust port you will automatically set the maximum amount of rpm's in a way, not exactly.
However the tricky part is, how are you going to police this rule?. It's not possible to disassemble every engine to check the exhaust port size.
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Old 01-31-2012, 06:39 AM   #167
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Hey Patto,

I hear you regarding the new guy, I think it's a matter of numbers and motive. We had several years as newbies learning the craft and only now stepping up in performance. I think there's always a crowd that will come along and love it for what it is, accept there are many faster cars and drivers and will stay and enjoy.

There's also the newcomers who dream of the weekend beating patto and others who cant accept the reality that it takes time and give up before they
go through the motions.

More mass is a greater load on the clutches, the tranny, belts and such and the rules dont say you have to be that light and it's very much up the the club and the drivers to give the newcomers a good experience and not have to "blow their doors" off so to speak. It's an club etiquette issue more than a car specification and for those that get a good year of enjoyment in a good club, they'll step up and get their hands on a good chassis and go through the same motions we did.

Not arguing the point either, we so often assume that the cars and the specs are the problem with newbies. It's a much bigger picture, with so many variables as to why they stop. Anyone that gets into motor racing knows its expensive and for those that dont, then it's not going to make any difference what the top level guys do.

Ultimately we need more numbers to make it a much more rewarding experience for all drivers and that's what makes spending the $$$ worth it.
there are so many levels of this Rule change, most of the people with the cars that already can reach the lowered limit have nothign to worry about. i can see that. and i can see evolvement in teh hobby, but my point is being at what cost. i think people who know me well enough know i dont really care. i take great pride when people say that something cant be done, or you cant do this, i always want to and will prove wrong. that is just me. but i would really hate to loose variety in teh manufacturers we have now.

i would hate for a company to move on to other things after they weigh up the market, and the cost to re invent what they have already, and then just say, well we just can not do this. half the fun on any level of racing, is hearing each beloved fan of a manufacturer lay some funny ass comment to anotehr mates brand. this Banter could all be lost if there are 2 or 3 manufacturers left int eh market at the high end level. i feel some brands will really struggle to meet the markets demand, that is now set by the EFRA rule. and that is not anyones fault here making comments. but things are hard for not only racers to race at the moment, but do not forget what kind of strain that could put on all brands on teh market right now, maybe some have been workign on RnD for over a year or so to release a new ground up chassis, or a major revision of what they have already, and maybe near completion, have this rule shoved down their throat. so there is a bigger picture to all this, but for me, i just dont understand why it has to happen now , when the world is hanging on a shoe string for major Collapse. im sure this culd be put off longer to make sure that the market can not so much survive, but actually thrive before this lowered limit is reached.
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Old 01-31-2012, 06:52 AM   #168
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An engine will wear out faster in a lighter car, since it spends more time in high rpm's. And we all know rpm's kill engines. With a lighter car the engine has less resistance to spool up and spends a longer time at higher rpm's since you can accelerate earlier and brake later.

When you limit the size of the exhaust port you will automatically set the maximum amount of rpm's in a way, not exactly.
However the tricky part is, how are you going to police this rule?. It's not possible to disassemble every engine to check the exhaust port size.
In the past the 235mm had rules about a maximum height on the intake and exhaust ports. Due a different bore/stroke messurement, cutting edges of the piston and changing crankshaft timing there was still a way to get more performance out of the engine.

A different force will come up. A faster acceleration does give higher forces as wel. The faster spin up of the crankshaft does give more stress on the rod and not only the high rpm. (most engines do fail when they are in midrange accelerating to topspeed). This item will not be changed with limiting the RPM by a lower/smaller exhaust port although the lower top RPM can compensate the lifespan.
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Old 01-31-2012, 10:18 AM   #169
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An engine will wear out faster in a lighter car, since it spends more time in high rpm's. And we all know rpm's kill engines. With a lighter car the engine has less resistance to spool up and spends a longer time at higher rpm's since you can accelerate earlier and brake later.
Well with a lighter car i will certainly gear up to get more speed. The rev`s will be the same but i will get more speed. Fuel usage will then also be the same wich is important. SPEED, is what will get more new drivers. Will look neat when you see the 1/10 cars pass the 1/8 cars speed wise.just kidding guys, but speed is what racers want.

Regarding costwise lighter parts.
The manufacturers keep bringing new cars and every body buys them. Who tells the manufacturers they are doing wrong because the old cars now need to be discarded and can`t keep up. Its the same now with the new weight limit. People feel to be pushed to buy lighter parts. But no one is complaining when they buy the new MTX5 when the MTX4 is almost just as fast (unless your named Pietch) Some who bought the new MRX5 didn`t think that it was unnessesary to bring a new car since the MRX4 is a very good 1/8 car. 1/8 friends of mine have switched to another brand because they wanted it, not because the old car was slow.

New cars is fun and nice to have, so are lightweight parts and new ideas to get the car faster. Part of the hobby. My NT1 is about 1600grams and i raced it with 1710grams rulewise. NO problemo. NT1 was the best buy ever, for me, light and unbreakable, (almost)

Last edited by djiewie; 01-31-2012 at 02:19 PM. Reason: english is rusty
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Old 02-17-2012, 10:33 AM   #170
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New 2012 EFRA rules are still not on-line and the max height rule is still not clear to me.
Will it be 150mm on 20mm blocks (w/o gurney) and 160 with gurney?

Could someone pls elaborate on this? Thanks, Stefan
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Old 02-17-2012, 12:05 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by fulcrum2 View Post
New 2012 EFRA rules are still not on-line and the max height rule is still not clear to me.
Will it be 150mm on 20mm blocks (w/o gurney) and 160 with gurney?

Could someone pls elaborate on this? Thanks, Stefan
Stefan,
the old rule (2011) was 160 mm body height on 10 mm blocks. Since the cars were sitting on the tyres with large diameter, they increased the block size to 20 mm.
With the 20mm blocks the body height has to be 170mm. (The car is 10mm higher on the new blocks)

I think the gurney flap is allowed to be 10mm higher than the body, but I'm not sure.
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Old 02-17-2012, 01:53 PM   #172
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Thanks Stefan, I just realized that i mixed things up here... I'm getting old
What you wrote makes absolutely sense, 170mm on 20mm blocks. But we have to wait for the official EFRA 2012 rulebook to be sure about the gurney....

Have a great weekend. Best regards, Stefan
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Old 02-17-2012, 02:18 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by DS Motorsport View Post
An engine will wear out faster in a lighter car, since it spends more time in high rpm's. And we all know rpm's kill engines. With a lighter car the engine has less resistance to spool up and spends a longer time at higher rpm's since you can accelerate earlier and brake later.

When you limit the size of the exhaust port you will automatically set the maximum amount of rpm's in a way, not exactly.
However the tricky part is, how are you going to police this rule?. It's not possible to disassemble every engine to check the exhaust port size.
Power and RPM could also be reduced from the other end, by choking the engines with a smaller venturi opening size. Venturi sizes are easy to check.

Kindest regards,
Lars.
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Old 02-18-2012, 06:41 AM   #174
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Future EFRA rules?

http://www.machheemstede.nl/home/ima...09-02-2012.pdf

It is in dutch but there are plenty free online document translater to find....
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Old 02-18-2012, 08:12 AM   #175
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Future EFRA rules?

http://www.machheemstede.nl/home/ima...09-02-2012.pdf

It is in dutch but there are plenty free online document translater to find....
I agree with quieter engines but why narrowing just to one engine?The SH I'm using is the G4JR stock engine and it's been great to me.How about OS do they still have a cheap engine?
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Old 02-18-2012, 09:41 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
Future EFRA rules?

http://www.machheemstede.nl/home/ima...09-02-2012.pdf

It is in dutch but there are plenty free online document translater to find....
I understand the noise-problem in central-Europe. We in the Nordic countries (Norway, Sweden, Finland..) do not have the same problem, since the tracks are all located better. Near the airports, near the highways, near the 1/1scale race centers, in the middle of nowhere..

That means that we can and we want to have the cars having power and loud noise. It's the whole idea of 1/8 onroad.

Tricky situation, must say..

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Old 02-18-2012, 03:30 PM   #177
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The main problem here is that the track is situated in a recreation area, that problem will never be solved unless you move the track.
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Old 02-18-2012, 03:52 PM   #178
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I agree with quieter engines but why narrowing just to one engine?The SH I'm using is the G4JR stock engine and it's been great to me.How about OS do they still have a cheap engine?
An OS-TG is a very reliable fixed intake port engine that will outlast an SH. The metallurgy is better when made in Japan and while it only produces 1hp if cared for they last for years. So the extra few dollars compared to an SH or STS is worth it.

Later, if you switch carby, or bore it out, it will zoom along nicely. Bearings are a decent quality, not high end but good, only issues is when running poor fuel and harming rear bearings. Otherwise it's a great choice.

Wish you were closer to Australia, I'd throw one your way free.
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Old 02-19-2012, 07:52 AM   #179
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Wow Blis,thanks for the offer and tips!
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Old 02-19-2012, 01:17 PM   #180
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An OS-TG is a very reliable fixed intake port engine that will outlast an SH. The metallurgy is better when made in Japan and while it only produces 1hp if cared for they last for years. So the extra few dollars compared to an SH or STS is worth it.

Later, if you switch carby, or bore it out, it will zoom along nicely. Bearings are a decent quality, not high end but good, only issues is when running poor fuel and harming rear bearings. Otherwise it's a great choice.

Wish you were closer to Australia, I'd throw one your way free.
Not sure if this is the right thread for it, but I would endorse all this. O.S. 12 TZ and XZ carby's with removable venturis work in these engines, and that would probably be a better choice for more speed. A word of warning though, the standard bearings in this engine will have a shorter life with more revs, but that won't be a problem with bearings meant for TZ or XZ engines.

Kindest regards,
Lars.
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