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Old 08-17-2011, 06:30 AM   #16
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Yes, in races where it is banned, it is cheating. That's not what the debate is about. The debate is about whether or not it is worth continuing the ban. As of right now, there is no quick, simple, reliable way to tech for it. Because of that, some people are going to do it. The only way to make it fair is to allow it so the honorable people can also do it without cheating.

Now I understand the point of those that don't want to allow it. I would prefer to do without too but the only ways I can see to enforce it are MUCH more a pain, expense and inconvenience than using it is. So just end all the controversy and allow it.
Wing I see you point, and it's valid to a certain degree, though the concept of not being able to test also applies to nitro content. There's no easy way to determine the CH3NO2 (Nitro) which is mixed into CH3OH (Methanol) which is tested in Air which is primarily Nitrogen, with Carbon oxides and Oxygen and mixed with castor oil, another organic compound.

Only a Spectrophotometer in a controlled environment can test for the true percentage of oxygen in the mix and hence determine the ratio of methanol to Nitro and count the carbon atoms. This doesnt mean the rules changed and permitted an open rule to fuel.

Cheats will always be rife in all forms of sport, it's the false accusations that do the most harm and I think that's where your point of view holds some validity. I believe it's up the the majority racers to be vigilant in setting the tone of how we race, and not have the attitude of ...

"If you can't beat em, join em!"
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Old 08-17-2011, 03:20 PM   #17
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That's why IFMAR has hand out fuel (which I also hate for non performance related reasons) and why ROAR still has open fuel. If I have to run handout fuel AND handout tires that I am not allowed to modify to suit my needs, that may or may not be the same as I can get locally for testing, that may or may not be good quality, then I will not be racing. That just doesn't interest me at all.
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Old 08-17-2011, 04:47 PM   #18
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From RedRC:

Unfortunately on our arrival at the Ettlingen track the use of tyre additive was the big talking point. A problem that dogged the 1:8 Onroad World & European Championships this year, doing great damage to the Formula 1 class of rc racing, the matter now looks like it may overshadow the 1:10 200mm event. Having been caught out at the 1:8 Euros in Luxembourg 3-weeks ago, the sports ruling body EFRA have come to Germany a lot better prepared to deal with the matter. A tyre impound area comes into effect from tomorrow with drivers having to present their tyres a minimum of 1 hour prior to their run. In this time the tyres will be tested using a sniffer device but aware that this is unable to detect some of the newer chemicals known to be used in additive a Spectro Analyzer will also be used. This procedure will see one of the tyres placed in water and a sample of that water tested in the Analyzer. Due to the testing process it has been recommended that drivers present 6 tyres to impound.

EFRA 1:10 200mm Section Chairman Frany Noens demonstrated the procedure and the results of an untreated and treated tyre to representatives of the various manufacturer present in Ettlingen who praised him for his efforts to try and eradicate the problem. Noens also made it very clear to both the manufacturers and the Team Managers that EFRA was taking the matter very seriously and anyone found using treated tyres would be sent home with their tyres sent to a lab for professional analysis so EFRA could proceed with having that driver banner from competition for 5-years.



So now you will have to take 6 tires to impound 1 hour before your race for testing. I'm sorry but this just does not sound like very much fun to me.
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Old 08-18-2011, 12:53 AM   #19
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So now you will have to take 6 tires to impound 1 hour before your race for testing. I'm sorry but this just does not sound like very much fun to me.
True, the good must suffer with the bad....

But see it also otherwise, racing with cheaters is no fun as well. in both ways it will cost drivers. You can blame the EFRA about this but I blame the cheaters causing this because they can not act like gentleman.
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Old 08-18-2011, 01:12 AM   #20
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racing with cheaters is no fun as well.
+1!!
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Old 08-18-2011, 03:54 AM   #21
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Volker and an unnamed Russian were excluded, then reinstated. Getting crazy.
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Old 08-18-2011, 04:51 AM   #22
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It's called teething problems, you can't have a new system and not hit any bumps along the way, fair enough for Volker to be upset, but in reality with compounds made to be non detectable by other methods, they had to go or a method of testing that is actually known to be too sensitive, blame the original issue, not the methods or results.
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Old 08-18-2011, 07:02 AM   #23
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I think EFRA is doing exactly the right thing.

That the system obviously detects permanent marker is great, because than it will hopefully detect any other foreign substance as well.

They simply have to get a "virgin" tyre to set a reference or fingerprint. Every following tyre of this brand better be tha same.

I think this way of checking the tyres will be a great deterrent to those who wanted to sauce.
I'm sure they'll think twice now.

Also, the machine they are using is relatively low price with $ 2500.
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Old 08-18-2011, 07:28 AM   #24
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Default Wingracer.. I guess you are right.

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From RedRC:

So now you will have to take 6 tires to impound 1 hour before your race for testing. I'm sorry but this just does not sound like very much fun to me.
It's no fun at all... Impounding tyres also means having to true tyres at the last minute (additional stress) or driving on tyres that aren't suited for the track.

Event errors WILL be made and arguments begin, I've seen this specially with father and sons teams like mine. What if one of my son's gets the other's tyres and so on.. Not to mention the additional marshals and volunteers.

Hence.. back to your original, go ahead and sauce the tyres, if it means the difference between enjoying racing and getting upset, I take the enjoyment option. I rather let you have .2 - .5 than to go home upset and feel like I wasted time and money.

Just don't come to England Park (2006 worlds) with sauce.. you will be removed from the event.

PS: We race AARCMCC which is under FEMCA, which is under IFMAR... Our on road racing is getting thinner and thinner in entrants, this isnt helping matters.
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Old 08-18-2011, 08:03 AM   #25
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The funny thing in this discussion is that no one seems to be upset that there are drivers are acting against the rules. These are the guys creating the issue, not the EFRA and not the drivers who want to drive fair.
BLAME THEM!


OK, there is stuff to get which can not be detected but is that a reason to use it? OK, you can start up the discussion but still you are not alowed to use it until the rules are set in that way.
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Old 08-18-2011, 01:25 PM   #26
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Hence.. back to your original, go ahead and sauce the tyres, if it means the difference between enjoying racing and getting upset, I take the enjoyment option. I rather let you have .2 - .5 than to go home upset and feel like I wasted time and money.
As I have said before, I would rather NOT sauce tires but to me, saucing is less hassle than all the hoops you have to jump through to enforce a ban.

Something else I'm curious about. Has EFRA tested a set that has been run? I bet they would have all kinds of gunk that would trip the detector after a few laps. So every round you will need a brand new, fresh set.
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Old 08-18-2011, 01:51 PM   #27
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Do we need outlaw class again?
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Old 08-18-2011, 03:26 PM   #28
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Saucers SUCK!! And now we will have a ton of them in US cause monkey see....
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Old 08-18-2011, 03:59 PM   #29
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Quote:
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The funny thing in this discussion is that no one seems to be upset that there are drivers are acting against the rules. These are the guys creating the issue, not the EFRA and not the drivers who want to drive fair.
BLAME THEM!


OK, there is stuff to get which can not be detected but is that a reason to use it? OK, you can start up the discussion but still you are not alowed to use it until the rules are set in that way.
Roleof... I think most of us are upset about cheating, but we are accepting it because we know arguments harm our sport more than sauce.
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Old 08-18-2011, 07:12 PM   #30
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Saucers SUCK!! And now we will have a ton of them in US cause monkey see....
I love monkeys monkey meat is the best
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