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Old 12-08-2011, 10:32 AM   #121
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So when all the series go to no tire prep rule, how will they in force it? LOL, there is not a way.
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Old 12-08-2011, 11:05 AM   #122
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Roelof- let me ask you your opinion on what is europes mind set on why sauce is cheating. In electric rubber tire and foam racing tire sauce is allowed by efra. 12th scale uses tire sauce. Why is it frowned upon in gas racing. Is it because it is something that is not common and has not been used before. It almost seems that it is the future and will always be here. The pros that used it to there advantage have had there secret come out. I heard the pros were already using it back in the 2005 WC in Messina. In the US it is here to stay. Why not accept it.
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Old 12-08-2011, 12:42 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by rangulo View Post
Roelof- let me ask you your opinion on what is europes mind set on why sauce is cheating.
Simple, up on the end of this year season it was forbidden by the rules, using additives was simple called cheating, nothing more, nothing less.

Some problems did raise a few months ago, we have seen this on a GP in Italy because they did allow it. Going to that EFRA race in Italy people were using additives openly while still it was forbidden by the rules. The next year op national level some coutries will alow it and others don't what will give problems bringing those drivers to one event as we have seen in Italy.
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Old 12-08-2011, 01:25 PM   #124
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Roelof- let me ask you your opinion on what is europes mind set on why sauce is cheating. In electric rubber tire and foam racing tire sauce is allowed by efra. 12th scale uses tire sauce. Why is it frowned upon in gas racing. Is it because it is something that is not common and has not been used before. It almost seems that it is the future and will always be here. The pros that used it to there advantage have had there secret come out. I heard the pros were already using it back in the 2005 WC in Messina. In the US it is here to stay. Why not accept it.
Unfortunately, saucing for nitro onroad seems to be a completely different animal compared to electric racing.

Right now, if you want to use sauced tyres this coming weekend, you'll have to prep your tyres on Wednesday in order to get them soaked through.

Electric racing is 5-8 minutes and saucing is sufficient 20 -30 minutes before the run.

Here in Europe we run every race on a different track, so you basically have to prep every tyre brand you plan to use with every sauce on Wednesday to have all your bases covered on Sunday.

Otherwise you might show up to a race to find out that the sauce that you got on your tyres is not working on this specific track = game over.

IMHO, tyre saucing helps those guy the most that can't set up their car.

I think a pro driver might gain a tenth or two, but a mediocre racer will probably gain up to one second by saucing.

That's why the Italians like it so much......
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Old 12-08-2011, 02:36 PM   #125
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I think that once everyone gets more familiar with saucing and prep time things will be easier. We have tested here in the US and there is a difference of .4-.5 sec per lap. Why take on another set of responsibilities as tech officials. This one is a losing battle. EFRA would save themselves a lot of headaches and time and money by leaving this one alone. They have already made some pretty dumb rule changes with the 7 min qualifiers only to have to retract them and go back to 5 min. Save your money and buy more sauce.
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Old 12-08-2011, 03:15 PM   #126
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So when all the series go to no tire prep rule, how will they in force it? LOL, there is not a way.
Did you guy's know that they use a Minirae at DTM races as well? That the interests are far more higher compared to RC driving? That they find additive on a mile distance? And there are still racers who think it can not be enforced?

Put treated tires in a platic bag, leave it closed overnight at 21 degrees... open the bag next day and stik a Minirae in it!

My simple opinion? Its a cost issue and too much hassle for EFRA. The problem we are going to see now is that national organizations do not have the budget to buy a Minirae, so you might be exposed to whatever unhealty stuff!!!!!!
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Old 12-08-2011, 03:17 PM   #127
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True but still there is a question if we realy do need it. Why can a driver not accept a low grip situation where every one has to deal with? It is not only a matter of just use it, it is also the attitude of the driver driving and setup a car without such chemical aids..

On a Dutch forum where the racers and bashers are discussing a lot but also the bashers want to get more into racing we do get the message that we are scaring them off with all the equipment and technology we have. As Stefan has mentioned, the need to prepaire as many tyres you have with all the additives possible (what people will do) is setting up a huge wall for those who are thinking of stepping in. With other words, getting fresh blood will get more difficult if we make it more difficult and expensive.
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Old 12-08-2011, 03:47 PM   #128
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Did you guy's know that they use a Minirae at DTM races as well? That the interests are far more higher compared to RC driving? That they find additive on a mile distance? And there are still racers who think it can not be enforced?

Put treated tires in a platic bag, leave it closed overnight at 21 degrees... open the bag next day and stik a Minirae in it!

My simple opinion? Its a cost issue and too much hassle for EFRA. The problem we are going to see now is that national organizations do not have the budget to buy a Minirae, so you might be exposed to whatever unhealty stuff!!!!!!
Give me any type of chemical you have, and givin enough time I will make it pass any test you put it through.

I know all of my chemicals will pass all the tests that have ever been put into a tire. (rubber Tires) Not talking about foams.
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Old 12-09-2011, 07:52 AM   #129
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I think everyone has to have a eqaul playing field to make there skills be the factor on how good they run, but that usually does not matter as everyone is looking for more advantages. Factory drivers will always have a larger selection of motors and tire shores. I'll go to a certain track and matrix will work amazing and at another its contact. Should I carry every compound and every brand with me. It makes for a really tough situation for the non pro driver who does not go to a track before-hand to test for the best setup and tire combo. Its easier for me to carry along one brand of tires and a few types of tire additive. Remember these tire additives have beeen around for years and no side affects other than the wintergreen stuff that gives you a headache in the indoor races with bad circulation.

If your concerened with the saucing, buy a box of vinyle disposable gloves for saucing the tires and take precautions. We are all capable of adapting. I would rather be in the loop when it comes to speed and handling than out in the cold with a slow poor handling car. Hopefully Efra will make more rational decisions and stop their attemps to make new trends like 7 min qualifiers and no body stiffners and 3,4,5 chamber pipes. Where does it all end.
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Old 12-09-2011, 08:08 AM   #130
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I think everyone has to have a eqaul playing field to make there skills be the factor on how good they run, but that usually does not matter as everyone is looking for more advantages. Factory drivers will always have a larger selection of motors and tire shores. I'll go to a certain track and matrix will work amazing and at another its contact. Should I carry every compound and every brand with me. It makes for a really tough situation for the non pro driver who does not go to a track before-hand to test for the best setup and tire combo. Its easier for me to carry along one brand of tires and a few types of tire additive. Remember these tire additives have beeen around for years and no side affects other than the wintergreen stuff that gives you a headache in the indoor races with bad circulation.

If your concerened with the saucing, buy a box of vinyle disposable gloves for saucing the tires and take precautions. We are all capable of adapting. I would rather be in the loop when it comes to speed and handling than out in the cold with a slow poor handling car. Hopefully Efra will make more rational decisions and stop their attemps to make new trends like 7 min qualifiers and no body stiffners and 3,4,5 chamber pipes. Where does it all end.

well said.
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Old 12-09-2011, 08:08 AM   #131
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Now I get it. Its about the need to soak the tires ahead of time due to the length.

Handout tires?
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Old 12-09-2011, 08:13 AM   #132
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To be honest. It is not the EFRA but the countries making the vote.

The problem (I think) is that most people in that room think EFRA knows best and take a sensible vote and so yes, the most crazy sugestions made by the EFRA will be taken by most countries.
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Old 12-09-2011, 09:03 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by rangulo View Post
I think everyone has to have a eqaul playing field to make there skills be the factor on how good they run, but that usually does not matter as everyone is looking for more advantages. Factory drivers will always have a larger selection of motors and tire shores. I'll go to a certain track and matrix will work amazing and at another its contact. Should I carry every compound and every brand with me. It makes for a really tough situation for the non pro driver who does not go to a track before-hand to test for the best setup and tire combo. Its easier for me to carry along one brand of tires and a few types of tire additive. Remember these tire additives have beeen around for years and no side affects other than the wintergreen stuff that gives you a headache in the indoor races with bad circulation.

If your concerened with the saucing, buy a box of vinyle disposable gloves for saucing the tires and take precautions. We are all capable of adapting. I would rather be in the loop when it comes to speed and handling than out in the cold with a slow poor handling car. Hopefully Efra will make more rational decisions and stop their attemps to make new trends like 7 min qualifiers and no body stiffners and 3,4,5 chamber pipes. Where does it all end.
Hey Rafael,

If the track is sprayed the sauce no longer becomes a requirement. You've run at Toledo during happy hour. You know how high the traction gets. That's the easiest, cheapest, most equitable answer for everyone. Everyone will have the same grip, pro to rookie. You can run whatever tire brand you want. All you need is syrup, alcohol, castor, and a sprayer to lay it down.

Rick
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Old 12-09-2011, 10:11 AM   #134
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Hey Rafael,

If the track is sprayed the sauce no longer becomes a requirement. You've run at Toledo during happy hour. You know how high the traction gets. That's the easiest, cheapest, most equitable answer for everyone. Everyone will have the same grip, pro to rookie. You can run whatever tire brand you want. All you need is syrup, alcohol, castor, and a sprayer to lay it down.

Rick
I think that may be an over simplification of the situation. When track grip is off the wall you can still use additive for increase in performance. You just need different additive or different compound or flavor of tire or diameter of tires.

I think it will evolve into what been the norm with carpet racing. You still use additive when yet black groove in the track.

Now just need to mount up some magenta fronts and yellow rears for my 1/8... bring on the track spraying and bust out your can of ground effects it will be like a noisy 1/12 mod car!
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Old 12-09-2011, 11:39 AM   #135
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I think that may be an over simplification of the situation. When track grip is off the wall you can still use additive for increase in performance. You just need different additive or different compound or flavor of tire or diameter of tires.

I think it will evolve into what been the norm with carpet racing. You still use additive when yet black groove in the track.

Now just need to mount up some magenta fronts and yellow rears for my 1/8... bring on the track spraying and bust out your can of ground effects it will be like a noisy 1/12 mod car!
the good old days 1/12 mod
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