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Old 07-19-2011, 11:49 AM   #121
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I'd be fine with it.
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Old 07-19-2011, 11:50 AM   #122
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Would you guys be willing to do 7 min qualifiers?
I do not think they can, although it would be fun. We ran this way at the last race here in Florida and it was fun. Not to mention I would not have to work on making runtime

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Old 07-19-2011, 12:11 PM   #123
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I do not think they can, although it would be fun. We ran this way at the last race here in Florida and it was fun. Not to mention I would not have to work on making runtime

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I think it would be a good idea if they did. There is a topic on the ROAR forum. Maybe if we can get a vote on it before the nats it might happen.
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Old 07-19-2011, 12:34 PM   #124
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Here's the link. http://roarracing.org/4rmb/showthrea...gas-ROAR-races
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Old 07-19-2011, 12:36 PM   #125
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I think it would be a good idea if they did. There is a topic on the ROAR forum. Maybe if we can get a vote on it before the nats it might happen.
Ok, now we'll have to open a can of worms here...... Obviously, I would vote for 5 minutes because fuel conservation is an advantage to me. However, that aside, I would like to know why 7 minute qualifiers are a good idea? Here are my thoughts on why it is not a good idea....

It adds to an already lengthy race program - this is bad

It brings pitting into play for qualifying - since when did pitting become a part of the qualifying process in auto racing?? Remember, this is to just get a spot on the grid for the real racing! - this is bad

I am not against a change to the qualifying process, as the 5 minute qualifier has now become a chore to try and make fuel mileage on many tracks, but my thought is this.....

The point of qualifying is to take your best shot with your car to laydown a good run and seed yourself as high as possible..... just YOU and the CAR. If the qualifier is 7 minutes and you make a mistake 1 minute into the race, the other 6 minutes are now irrelevant! If you have a perfect run on the track for the whole 7 minutes, but your pit guy dropped the fuel bottle or your car when you came in, your perfect run is no more. (in the race, fueling is part of the game, but it shouldn't be in the qualifying process).
Wouldn't it make more sense to SHORTEN the qualifying runs to say, 3 minutes? Not only would this eliminate the fuel mileage issue, but it would also shorten the race program allowing for more practice, longer mains, or even an extra round or two of qualifying. Personally, I would rather have 8 rounds 3 minute qualifying chances, than 6 rounds of 7 minute chances...... and it would STILL take less time to complete!

I am not claiming to have the right answers, and I am all for making any kind of change that helps grow our hobby. I just don't see the point of 7 minute (or 10 minute for that matter) qualifiers
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Old 07-19-2011, 01:06 PM   #126
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Ok, now we'll have to open a can of worms here...... Obviously, I would vote for 5 minutes because fuel conservation is an advantage to me. However, that aside, I would like to know why 7 minute qualifiers are a good idea? Here are my thoughts on why it is not a good idea....

It adds to an already lengthy race program - this is bad

It brings pitting into play for qualifying - since when did pitting become a part of the qualifying process in auto racing?? Remember, this is to just get a spot on the grid for the real racing! - this is bad

I am not against a change to the qualifying process, as the 5 minute qualifier has now become a chore to try and make fuel mileage on many tracks, but my thought is this.....

The point of qualifying is to take your best shot with your car to laydown a good run and seed yourself as high as possible..... just YOU and the CAR. If the qualifier is 7 minutes and you make a mistake 1 minute into the race, the other 6 minutes are now irrelevant! If you have a perfect run on the track for the whole 7 minutes, but your pit guy dropped the fuel bottle or your car when you came in, your perfect run is no more. (in the race, fueling is part of the game, but it shouldn't be in the qualifying process).
Wouldn't it make more sense to SHORTEN the qualifying runs to say, 3 minutes? Not only would this eliminate the fuel mileage issue, but it would also shorten the race program allowing for more practice, longer mains, or even an extra round or two of qualifying. Personally, I would rather have 8 rounds 3 minute qualifying chances, than 6 rounds of 7 minute chances...... and it would STILL take less time to complete!

I am not claiming to have the right answers, and I am all for making any kind of change that helps grow our hobby. I just don't see the point of 7 minute (or 10 minute for that matter) qualifiers
I agree with most of what Scott has stated. If the goal of 7 minute qualifiers is to eliminate the fuel mileage issue, then as Scott stated, shorten the qualifier, don't lengthen it. DON'T add pitting into the mix.
Regardless, I'm not in favor of changing the qualifier length - leave it at 5 minutes - for 1/8th scale.

Now, if you want to change a qualifier length, it should be the touring cars. Their qualifier length should be changed to 6 minutes (or tank size reduced) as their tanks are over-sized. When a .12 engine can keep up with a .21 down the straight and still make run-time, that means they have too much fuel for the length of the race.

Even many engine modders charge more to modify a .12 versus a .21 as there is so much more they can do to it and STILL make five minutes.

Anyway, back to the Nats.
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Old 07-19-2011, 01:14 PM   #127
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4 minutes would be good also.
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Old 07-19-2011, 01:35 PM   #128
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I understand everyone's points, and both are valid. Longer qualifiers give you more bang for the buck, and as long as people are spending good money to travel to an event, maybe more track time is good. The other side of it is also correct in that qualifying in all other forms of motorsport, is done mostly in a few attempts at one hero lap, not even a short run. It's intended to establish the starting grid for the real racing, which does include pitstops.

I talked with Pooh about this, whom I raced with and who's opinion I respect. I initially didn't think there would be a problem as long as we had the overwhelming support of the racers. But, I also agree with Scott's point that qualifying shouldn't be about pits stops.

This year's nats are going to have five minute qualifiers. If, however, the vast majority of the 1/8 on-road community supports a change, I think it would be good to discuss either the status quo, following IFMAR, motocross-style mains (no real qualifying) or even running hero lap qualifying, in which case the event could be run in two or three days instead of nearly a week. If there's a consensus that a change is in the best interests of the majority, then it's fair game, but it'll be for next year. I'm on the fence on this one.
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Old 07-19-2011, 02:01 PM   #129
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Steve,

Would it be a better option to review such changes well in advance of a national event?

Perhaps better to consider these things for 2012 regardless of support in 2011.

Most people around country have been running a 5min format in club races and other major events.

I would think it is way to close to the event to make such a sweeping change.

The change requires a drastic change in approach to ones qualifying package with regards to strategy,chassis, engine, tune, pipe selection etc etc.

Also as far as finals go I think it best to follow one format.

The mixing a qual point system and ifmar system as was done at the last nationals seemed kind of silly and almost contradictory. Using qual points rewards the most consistent driver then why have 4 direct qualifiers?

Ifmar format for finals at worlds was pretty straightforward with 4 direct to final and ladder system for all lower finals.

The events all have become way to long it may be time to reconsider overal format for 2012. I think the length of these events hurts attendance by the "Joe Average I Have A Job Racer"

I think 3 best average laps format that they used to seed the qualifying at worlds was pretty clever and you could drastically shorten these events by switching ladder system with NO direct qualifiers for final, seed qualifiers during practice and have 2 rounds of qualifying.

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Old 07-19-2011, 02:37 PM   #130
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Both point of views are valid, it's hard for me to vote just for one of them. Is there a way we can incorporate both ideas.
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Old 07-19-2011, 02:57 PM   #131
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I like the way you think Scotty.

My favorite form of qualifying is actually what I call "session style" qualifying where the track is open for a certain amount of time, you can run as much or as little of that time as you want and your 3 or 5 fastest CONSECUTIVE laps determines the grid. I couple clubs around here used to do that and it was brilliant. Everyone loved it, yet no one does it anymore.

You could even take it another step. No sessions, just open track all day long. You can go out for an attempt at that top spot whenever you like. With this you could have three day events. 1 day of practice, 1 day of all day qualifying/practice and a day for mains.
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Old 07-19-2011, 04:45 PM   #132
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Jamie, please refer to the part where I said this year is going to be five minute qualifiers - I have no plans to change anything at this year's race, and I'm reluctant to change for future events unless it has overwhelming support from the majority of the 1/8 on-road community.

we current have a qualifying and race program that's similar to that of IFMAR. I'd personally like to make the subtle changes for next season to make it the same as IFMAR so our drivers are qualifying and racing under the same conditions, so when it comes time to attend an IFMAR event, the procedures are familiar and we won't be at a disadvantage. Having said that...

I'm not opposed to any type of change if the vast majority of racers think the events are way too long, or conversely too short, not enough track time, etc., etc. But, everyone should understand that deviating from IFMAR will put our drivers at a procedural disadvantage when it comes time for those events. If anyone can develop a very high level of support for an alternative, then I'm all ears.
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Old 07-19-2011, 04:53 PM   #133
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I like the way you think Scotty.

My favorite form of qualifying is actually what I call "session style" qualifying where the track is open for a certain amount of time, you can run as much or as little of that time as you want and your 3 or 5 fastest CONSECUTIVE laps determines the grid. I couple clubs around here used to do that and it was brilliant. Everyone loved it, yet no one does it anymore.

You could even take it another step. No sessions, just open track all day long. You can go out for an attempt at that top spot whenever you like. With this you could have three day events. 1 day of practice, 1 day of all day qualifying/practice and a day for mains.
Exactly. This would be my personal preference. Although an open track would be chaos, because when the track is at it's best, we'd have 85 cars on the track at the same time trying to make the show. I like the idea of qualifying like most motorsports events, and possibly shortening the overall event to something that's more manageable for people that don't have unlimited time and resources to attend these events. Perhaps we can run ROAR regionals in this manner, and have a points championship independent of the National Championship. Like I said, all points have merits, but if we're going to change, we need a "buy in" from the members that will be affected by it.
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Old 07-19-2011, 05:07 PM   #134
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we current have a qualifying and race program that's similar to that of IFMAR. I'd personally like to make the subtle changes for next season to make it the same as IFMAR so our drivers are qualifying and racing under the same conditions, so when it comes time to attend an IFMAR event, the procedures are familiar and we won't be at a disadvantage. Having said that...

......But, everyone should understand that deviating from IFMAR will put our drivers at a procedural disadvantage when it comes time for those events. If anyone can develop a very high level of support for an alternative, then I'm all ears.
This is one of the primary reasons I tend to favor 7 or 10 minute qualifiers. Practice makes perfect and you might as well get your pit man in practice for the mains while your qualifying. Yeah a pit man can drop a bottle in a 7 minute qualifier and muff it but he can also do the same in the main and muff it too........once again he needs practice. I remember watching some of the European pitting techniques at the 200mm Worlds last year and they were slaughtering badly alot of the Americans in the way they pitted the cars.
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Old 07-19-2011, 05:32 PM   #135
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Exactly. This would be my personal preference. Although an open track would be chaos, because when the track is at it's best, we'd have 85 cars on the track at the same time trying to make the show. I like the idea of qualifying like most motorsports events, and possibly shortening the overall event to something that's more manageable for people that don't have unlimited time and resources to attend these events. Perhaps we can run ROAR regionals in this manner, and have a points championship independent of the National Championship. Like I said, all points have merits, but if we're going to change, we need a "buy in" from the members that will be affected by it.
Steve, this should come from the On-Road committee, if it even still exists. Too much is spent on qualifying anyway - we should have the emphasis on the RACE.

Seed with fast three laps - then run 3, 4 minute qualifiers. The actual race would be a tree system so we can run to our hearts content.

Start a thread about this subject - but, don't confuse the racers by posting on this THREAD.


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"Back to the Nats".
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