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Old 10-19-2004, 04:40 PM   #226
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Default Re: Kyosho

Quote:
Originally posted by 840918001
Hi,

Today I have spoken to someone of Team Serpent Holland, and he told me that the reason for the tration rolling problem was easy.
They use very rigid suspension-arms which make the car very fast on flat tracks.
The track in Brazil was very bumpy, so they had a problem here.
The fact that Salven and Green made the Final was due the fact that those are two very very good drivers.

The Kyosho uses arms with more flex in it, so the bumps are no problems for them. This fact makes the car more capable of concering the bumps on bumpy tracs.
This can also be seen on the German track of Oberhausen.

This knowing makes me a little bit disapointed, why did Serpent not come out with softer arms?

Bye Thomas
I don't know who told you that but it doesn't sound like a logical reason. Besides, I have both a 710 and a V-one RRR so I have first hand knowledge with both cars. The suspension geometry is plain superior on the RRR. The geometry has a lot more to do with traction rolling than the stiffness of the arms.

If anything, the Serpent arms are more flexible than the Kyosho arms.
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Old 10-19-2004, 08:14 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikemyers
From what I saw on the track, the suspension arms beng rigid or flexible did not seem to be a major factor. I photographed both cars going over the bumps, and both got airborne. If anything, the front end of the Kyosho cars bumped up the highest. With the Serpent cars, it was the rear end that got up in the air. Check all the close-up photos and you can see this. Besides, the traction rolling problem was not at the places in the track where the bumps were.
Yes, that is definetely a lame reasons. As lame as if not admiting the design of V1RRR is taking all the `never tought possible` before from Serpent and CG of Team Magic Car (which used to copied V1R).

I think the flip problem is due to the use of harder dampening to get less roll rather than changing the roll center of the car and use softer dampening. Just a tought only
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Old 10-19-2004, 09:01 PM   #228
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The Serpent is at a disadvantage on high bite tracks. Again, this is because of the geometry. It's very much like the old Yokomo GT-4 which was also prone to traction rolling on similar surfaces.
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Old 10-19-2004, 10:06 PM   #229
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That`s not the case with our very high sugar watered bite tracks. Only a matters of setting it correctly. That also mean if it were having lower CG, it would have been better.
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Old 10-19-2004, 10:28 PM   #230
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Yes, you can work the setup but it's more of a compromise than the other cars.

Example, if the traction is high you would stiffen the front of soften the rear or stiffen both ends. Throw in some bumps into the mix and now what? You have to negotiate the bumps without bouncing all over and still keep the car from traction rolling. We all know the best setup will always be a compromise just with the best balance. Some cars just work better in certain condition.
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Old 10-19-2004, 10:32 PM   #231
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Quote:
Originally posted by Racing4Evo
The Serpent is at a disadvantage on high bite tracks. Again, this is because of the geometry. It's very much like the old Yokomo GT-4 which was also prone to traction rolling on similar surfaces.
Racing4Evo, perhaps instead of just saying it, you could explain to some of us WHAT and WHY the suspension geometry of the V1RRR is more superior...
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Old 10-19-2004, 11:14 PM   #232
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I admit that I'm not a rc car designer and I can't give you 100% accurate info. It's in the end mearly one person's objective opinion.

Here's what I think is the major difference and why the Serpent traction rolls easier than the V-One RRR: The rear end. The lower arm on the 710 is about 3mm longer than the RRR and the upper arm link of the rear hub on the 710 is about 4mm taller than the RRR. This makes for a softer suspension if I understand correctly. More leverage from the length of the rear arm and less camber change from the height of the upper link(an arm in the case of the 710). The angle of the shocks on the 710 are more vertical so there are not as progressive as the V-One RRR.
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Old 10-19-2004, 11:43 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally posted by Racing4Evo
I admit that I'm not a rc car designer and I can't give you 100% accurate info. It's in the end mearly one person's objective opinion.

Here's what I think is the major difference and why the Serpent traction rolls easier than the V-One RRR: The rear end. The lower arm on the 710 is about 3mm longer than the RRR and the upper arm link of the rear hub on the 710 is about 4mm taller than the RRR. This makes for a softer suspension if I understand correctly. More leverage from the length of the rear arm and less camber change from the height of the upper link(an arm in the case of the 710). The angle of the shocks on the 710 are more vertical so there are not as progressive as the V-One RRR.
Interesting comments! better than rumours from others

I'll be getting a V-One RRR to test soon - I'll write a report about the full build process, quality, ease of setup and when the weather allows also what it is like to test on the track.

I've written a build report about my second 710, which I'm taking to the winternats. If you'd like to read it, you can find it here:

710 Build Report.

Cheers, Mark.
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Old 10-20-2004, 12:04 AM   #234
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Quote:
Originally posted by Racing4Evo
Yes, you can work the setup but it's more of a compromise than the other cars.

Example, if the traction is high you would stiffen the front of soften the rear or stiffen both ends. Throw in some bumps into the mix and now what? You have to negotiate the bumps without bouncing all over and still keep the car from traction rolling. We all know the best setup will always be a compromise just with the best balance. Some cars just work better in certain condition.
What you said is true.. as for flipping, I believe the lower CG on V1/G4 is superior compared to S710. A car would have handle bump better/more stable needs to have anti dive/squat adjustment. Soft/harder dampening system is just to compromise the lack of that features. In case you have more info on V1RRR setups for worlds, please share with us. I`m really curious if what I believe considered affective (higher roll center + softer dampening to compromise bumps and challenge less prone to tracktion rolls = more stable car). Thx
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Old 10-20-2004, 12:23 AM   #235
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikemyers
, With the Serpent cars, it was the rear end that got up in the air. Check all the close-up photos and you can see this. Besides, the traction rolling problem was not at the places in the track where the bumps were.

What is also really strange, is Michael and his mechanic were sitting right next to me as Mauricio Marques was driving, and Michael was surprised that Mauricio´s car was having no problem handling the areas where Michael had to be so careful as to not traction roll. Michael later borrowed Maurizio´s car to check it out, but it was "stock".

Thanks Mike for comparation input.
From what i ever encounter, in 710 if he back end jump taller that front end while hitting a bump, that is because too thick rear shock oil. And can not solve with using bigger / more hole.
And a big downtravel will make it worse.
Interesting is so much rear downtravel could lead to off-throttle traction roll.

Maybe MS decide to gave those section to gain faster handling in other section.
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Old 10-20-2004, 12:44 AM   #236
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pyramid
In case you have more info on V1RRR setups for worlds, please share with us.
Yah.. yah.. where is that ?
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Old 10-20-2004, 01:04 AM   #237
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Old 10-21-2004, 10:55 AM   #238
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There is a full race report on the event now posted both on the Radio Control Car Action site, and also on SGRID.
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Old 10-21-2004, 11:57 AM   #239
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Default Editorial my Mike Meyers

UPDATE!


Folks, the full editorial and race report by Mike Meyers is also available in the Contents section of 3hobby.com!

Check it out!
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Old 10-21-2004, 04:35 PM   #240
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traction rolls and the 710.

a major difference in the 710 is this. the front tires have almost 2 ounces less weight on them than a mugen. the rear weights on the mugen and the serpent are very close. This causes you to severly compromise the car (my personal opinion) to get it to properly steer on power (the front of the car gets light)and off power the car transfers weight slowly to the front tires so the steering gains significantly as the car slows through the corner. all of the sudden the cars front traction climbs to the point the car hooks and flips.

at the nats we added weight (a ton. ray literally had an 1100 mah battery pack strapped to the front bumper of his 710 and nothing in the battery tray and his car handled better than any of the guys on our team. yea it sounds stupid but it worked fantastic) to the front of the car and stiffened the front dampning and used harder front tires to help controll on power push(weight transfer) and off throttle traction roll(hard tires). this is how we finally got the car to rotate decent while still using a one way.

just my .02
take it as you may.
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Last edited by Motorman; 10-21-2004 at 04:41 PM.
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