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Old 04-13-2006, 03:48 AM   #5881
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Default 2mm Wheel Offset Explained

I hope this makes it easier to explain wheel offsets.
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Last edited by rmdhawaii; 04-13-2006 at 04:54 AM.
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Old 04-13-2006, 05:26 AM   #5882
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Default Shocks

Has anyone tried the new Serpent 710 shocks on the RRR.

Do they fit ?
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Old 04-13-2006, 05:42 AM   #5883
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Default V1RRR WCE 30mm Tire, 0mm Offset Wheel Issue

The following applies to the V1RRR WCE:

The kit rear tire is 30mm wide, with a +2mm offset wheel (36234-37). If you buy rear tires with a 0mm offset wheel, your track-width is going to be short by 4mm (2mm on each side). If you adjust your track-width back to 200mm, by turning out the rear pivot balls, you run the risk that the universal swing shaft (VSW015) may pop out of differential joint (VZ219) during race conditions. You have several options to address this problem:

1. Buy the tires with the +2mm offset wheel.

2. Buy +1mm hexes and screw out the pivot balls by 1mm to get the 200mm track-width. This is not the same as having a +2mm offset wheel. Disadvantage: Unknown. If you decide to buy tires with a +2mm offset wheel, just swap out the hexes with the kit hexes and turn the pivot balls in 1mm.

3. Buy the VSW007 universal swing shaft (50mm length, same length as the VSW015 that comes with the kit), which has a 2mm offset wheel shaft plus a 2mm spacer to place in back of the hexes. You do not need to turn out your pivot balls and your track-width is 200mm. This is not the same as having a +2mm offset wheel. Disadvantage: 2mm spacer may have a slight effect on camber geometry. If you decide to buy tires with a +2mm offset wheel, your best bet is to switch back to the kit universal swing shaft.

4. Buy the VSW006 universal swing shaft (52mm length, 2mm longer than the VSW015 that comes with the kit), which has a 0mm offset wheel shaft and no spacer. You need to turn out your pivot balls 2mm to get the 200mm track-width. This is not the same as having a +2mm offset wheel. Disadvantage: Because the pivot balls are extended, you may increase the likelihood that they are bent in a crash. If you decide to buy tires with a +2mm offset wheel, just turn in the pivot ball by 2mm. Be sure to check suspension travel to ensure that the universal swing shaft does not bind at the differential joint.

For options 2-4, you may find that the inside edge of the rear wheel comes very close to the top of the rear hub by the aluminum collar (W0142). Upon examining suspension travel, it will appear that the wheel and hub will not make contact, however, under race conditions, the wheel and hub may come into contact (i.e. collision, flip on side, etc.).

Note #1: The VSW015 Universal Swing Shaft has a 0mm offset wheel shaft.
Note #2: The kit front tire is 26mm wide, with a 0mm offset wheel (36235-37).

If I need to make any corrections, please let me know. Thanks!
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Old 04-13-2006, 05:55 AM   #5884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B4
Has anyone tried the new Serpent 710 shocks on the RRR.

Do they fit ?
i tried on the Fantom shocks....works great
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Old 04-13-2006, 06:59 AM   #5885
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maskedrider
i tried on the Fantom shocks....works great
Can you please tell me the benefits you found with the Fantom shocks.
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Old 04-13-2006, 07:03 AM   #5886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmdhawaii
The following applies to the V1RRR WCE:

The kit rear tire is 30mm wide, with a +2mm offset wheel (36234-37). If you buy rear tires with a 0mm offset wheel, your track-width is going to be short by 4mm (2mm on each side). If you adjust your track-width back to 200mm, by turning out the rear pivot balls, you run the risk that the universal swing shaft (VSW015) may pop out of differential joint (VZ219) during race conditions. You have several options to address this problem:

1. Buy the tires with the +2mm offset wheel.

2. Buy +1mm hexes and screw out the pivot balls by 1mm to get the 200mm track-width. This is not the same as having a +2mm offset wheel. Disadvantage: Unknown. If you decide to buy tires with a +2mm offset wheel, just swap out the hexes with the kit hexes and turn the pivot balls in 1mm.

3. Buy the VSW007 universal swing shaft (50mm length, same length as the VSW015 that comes with the kit), which has a 2mm offset wheel shaft plus a 2mm spacer to place in back of the hexes. You do not need to turn out your pivot balls and your track-width is 200mm. This is not the same as having a +2mm offset wheel. Disadvantage: 2mm spacer may have a slight effect on camber geometry. If you decide to buy tires with a +2mm offset wheel, your best bet is to switch back to the kit universal swing shaft.

4. Buy the VSW006 universal swing shaft (52mm length, 2mm longer than the VSW015 that comes with the kit), which has a 0mm offset wheel shaft and no spacer. You need to turn out your pivot balls 2mm to get the 200mm track-width. This is not the same as having a +2mm offset wheel. Disadvantage: Because the pivot balls are extended, you may increase the likelihood that they are bent in a crash. If you decide to buy tires with a +2mm offset wheel, just turn in the pivot ball by 2mm. Be sure to check suspension travel to ensure that the universal swing shaft does not bind at the differential joint.

For options 2-4, you may find that the inside edge of the rear wheel comes very close to the top of the rear hub by the aluminum collar (W0142). Upon examining suspension travel, it will appear that the wheel and hub will not make contact, however, under race conditions, the wheel and hub may come into contact (i.e. collision, flip on side, etc.).

Note #1: The VSW015 Universal Swing Shaft has a 0mm offset wheel shaft.
Note #2: The kit front tire is 26mm wide, with a 0mm offset wheel (36235-37).

If I need to make any corrections, please let me know. Thanks!

You should have made your first statement (screw the pivot balls out 2mm each side and use 0 offset wheels) number 1 since that is an option. I have a few friends that do that and have not had any problems with the universals coming out. I'm not comfortable with it but people are doing it. Also, there are wheel shims (I think they are 1mm) you can use with a 0 offset wheel, similar to using the 1mm hex or use it with the 1mm hex.

The other possible variable you could add to this is the rear hub. Since VZ006 is listed on the chart seperately from the VZ202 there must be a difference... maybe the offset? If my assumption is correct then maybe we could use the 006 hub with the 007 universal and not have to use the 2mm washers??? Has anyone looked into this?

This would not even be an issue if more companies made tires with a 2mm offset.
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Old 04-13-2006, 09:27 AM   #5887
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Wow...

First of all, I think one should make a decision on which tire to use. Most tires in the market come in 0 and 1mm offset, only Kawahara Zac makes 2mm offset? (correct me if I'm wrong) Once you've made your decision on your preferred tires, it's pretty much straightforward then. No one will keep one changing tires every now and then in my opinion...

Just for example, I've tried 0 offset Speedmind (Sato) tires, Jaco's, 1mm offset Ellegis, and 2mm offset Zacs...different makes of tires just handles differently. I just love those Zac kicks, have been using them for the past 5 months or so. The Zacs are first on my list, but with the tires being priced a little bit more expensive than the others, I DID also think of the flexibility of using different brand of tires, the Ellegis are my natural next choice. Going from 2mm offset to 1mm offset wheel, all I need is just the 1mm offset wheel hex to make the change without having to change the trackwidth and all.

On camber (if you're worried about that)... To me, camber setup is a "running change". Camber setup on the setup station is merely a reference point, once the tires are bolted on, the working camber is not gonna be the same - taking into consideration the diameter of the tire. I have myself a RPM camber gauge to fease trackside changes, as the tires worn down, camber changes, and I find myself having to adjust the camber almost every 2 tanks or so to keep the same camber setting.

On the spacer affecting the camber geometry, it's complicated......I would not wanna get myself into that area. I MIGHT be wrong, but think of this.....IF the spacer IS gonna affect the camber geometry, so IS the offset in the wheel going to affect the geometry. When using offset wheels, the "trackwidth" and "camber" changes, but the trackwidth is always adjusted to bring things back into line. It's something like a domino effect, where one change leads to another. So I would think that IF ever there is a change affecting the camber geometry, it would be very MINIMAL. Talk about VSW006, the pivot ball has to be unscrewed out to get the desired trackwidth, in this case...it MAY also change the geometry? My point is, this is not quite an issue to be worried about. The camber adjustment link is there to make any changes needed.

Like what Jag mentioned on using the VSW006, yes, 1mm shim can be placed after the wheel hex if you have worries on the wheel rubbing the rear hub. But do not go more than 1mm, u might possibly stripped the tire hex adaptor if things go wrong. A tip on it, the lexan piece from the bodyshell can be used.
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Old 04-13-2006, 09:54 AM   #5888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommi
Wow...

First of all, I think one should make a decision on which tire to use. Most tires in the market come in 0 and 1mm offset, only Kawahara Zac makes 2mm offset? (correct me if I'm wrong) Once you've made your decision on your preferred tires, it's pretty much straightforward then. No one will keep one changing tires every now and then in my opinion...

Just for example, I've tried 0 offset Speedmind (Sato) tires, Jaco's, 1mm offset Ellegis, and 2mm offset Zacs...different makes of tires just handles differently. I just love those Zac kicks, have been using them for the past 5 months or so. The Zacs are first on my list, but with the tires being priced a little bit more expensive than the others, I DID also think of the flexibility of using different brand of tires, the Ellegis are my natural next choice. Going from 2mm offset to 1mm offset wheel, all I need is just the 1mm offset wheel hex to make the change without having to change the trackwidth and all.

On camber (if you're worried about that)... To me, camber setup is a "running change". Camber setup on the setup station is merely a reference point, once the tires are bolted on, the working camber is not gonna be the same - taking into consideration the diameter of the tire. I have myself a RPM camber gauge to fease trackside changes, as the tires worn down, camber changes, and I find myself having to adjust the camber almost every 2 tanks or so to keep the same camber setting.

On the spacer affecting the camber geometry, it's complicated......I would not wanna get myself into that area. I MIGHT be wrong, but think of this.....IF the spacer IS gonna affect the camber geometry, so IS the offset in the wheel going to affect the geometry. When using offset wheels, the "trackwidth" and "camber" changes, but the trackwidth is always adjusted to bring things back into line. It's something like a domino effect, where one change leads to another. So I would think that IF ever there is a change affecting the camber geometry, it would be very MINIMAL. Talk about VSW006, the pivot ball has to be unscrewed out to get the desired trackwidth, in this case...it MAY also change the geometry? My point is, this is not quite an issue to be worried about. The camber adjustment link is there to make any changes needed.

Like what Jag mentioned on using the VSW006, yes, 1mm shim can be placed after the wheel hex if you have worries on the wheel rubbing the rear hub. But do not go more than 1mm, u might possibly stripped the tire hex adaptor if things go wrong. A tip on it, the lexan piece from the bodyshell can be used.
I guess we may be over-analyzing this...

The real issue is tire selection. Where I live I can get Jaco's and Red Box in 2mm offset but the Jaco rim is fragile and the Red Box are expensive. I really like the Jaco foam and now that they are teaming up with Serpent I would like to use the tire/wheel combo but they don't make an offset wheel.

I'm not really excited about using a 2mm shim on the 007 universals. It just seems like a "band-aid" fix.

What to do...?
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Old 04-13-2006, 10:24 AM   #5889
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jag
I guess we may be over-analyzing this...

The real issue is tire selection. Where I live I can get Jaco's and Red Box in 2mm offset but the Jaco rim is fragile and the Red Box are expensive. I really like the Jaco foam and now that they are teaming up with Serpent I would like to use the tire/wheel combo but they don't make an offset wheel.

I'm not really excited about using a 2mm shim on the 007 universals. It just seems like a "band-aid" fix.

What to do...?
Things ARE indeed getting a little bit out of hand......but you got the message, it's really down to tire selection.

So I guess your choice would be the new Jacos on Serpent rims? Serpent rims are 1mm offset, no? Nevermind, let's take it as it's a 0mm offset rim, go with the 006 then, and get the 3Racing 1mm offset wheel hex, no "band-aid" fix of using a 1mm shim... On the VSW007, if ever it helps to get that "band-aid" thing off your mind and restore some of your faith in them, Josh Cyrul used it at the 2005 ROAR GP NATS...
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Old 04-13-2006, 10:33 AM   #5890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommi
Things ARE indeed getting a little bit out of hand......but you got the message, it's really down to tire selection.

So I guess your choice would be the new Jacos on Serpent rims? Serpent rims are 1mm offset, no? Nevermind, let's take it as it's a 0mm offset rim, go with the 006 then, and get the 3Racing 1mm offset wheel hex, no "band-aid" fix of using a 1mm shim... On the VSW007, if ever it helps to get that "band-aid" thing off your mind and restore some of your faith in them, Josh Cyrul used it at the 2005 ROAR GP NATS...

Guys Great topic.....My two cents....Ive used 2mm offset and 0 offset.....I cannot tell a difference in handling betwwen the two...right now my car is set up for 0 offset and it will stay that way.....the only thing I will change is the rear universal I want a slightly longer one so the bone isnt so close to falling out of the diff joints......Tires...So far my tire of choice is the jaco on jaco rim...havent tried the red box tires yet so I might change my mind...
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Old 04-13-2006, 10:39 AM   #5891
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jag
I guess we may be over-analyzing this...


Ya think? Thanks for all the great feedback guys. I'll make some modifications after we get more feedback and see if I can get it all straight. That way we can have something accurate to pass on to others.

Additional feedback and experience with any of the above is encouraged!

I purchased $108.00 worth of expensive rear 0mm offset wheels without knowing that the kit rear wheels had a +2mm offset - and raced with a 198mm track-width. While I was changing the track-width to 200mm, I noticed that the end of the universal swing shaft was hanging on the edge of the differential joint.

Unfortunately, New Arrows don't come in offsets. I have to put in a tire order since I'm down to my last set, so I'm seriously thinking of tracking down some 2mm offset wheel tires. I intentionally did not make this recommendation in the write-up, but I personally feel that #1 really is the best choice because it's what the kit was engineered for - and you don't have to worry about the wheel scraping the rear hub. But that's just me.
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Old 04-13-2006, 11:07 AM   #5892
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmdhawaii


Ya think?
What do ya think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmdhawaii
I purchased $108.00 worth of expensive rear 0mm offset wheels without knowing that the kit rear wheels had a +2mm offset - and raced with a 198mm track-width...
It's 196mm...!


Quote:
Originally Posted by rmdhawaii
I intentionally did not make this recommendation in the write-up, but I personally feel that #1 really is the best choice because it's what the kit was engineered for - and you don't have to worry about the wheel scraping the rear hub. But that's just me.
That's what the out-of-box designed kit provides.


The options provided, I would like to think, too are "engineered" to accomodate to individual preferences as well... Good example given by robert maestrey on his preference to use the 0 offset tires, it all boils down to individual preferences once again. In this professional hobby car kit, there's just too many variables taking place, despite of how much we've discussed on this matter, they were all just a minor part of the variables involved, and there are still other aspects of affecting variables involved that's not in the discussion. But at least we've narrowed it down to some of the aspects in relation to what the discussion is about.... Kudos to rmdhawaii in taking the effort to compile all the info, an FAQ maybe?
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Old 04-13-2006, 11:18 AM   #5893
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Hey Tommi.... beri Chim leh...

catch no balls....
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Old 04-13-2006, 11:24 AM   #5894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B4
Can you please tell me the benefits you found with the Fantom shocks.
I'm using the Fantom rear springs on our Front and the Rear and using 50 shock oil for both... result : veri stiff and it handles well especially on width track and long stright
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Old 04-13-2006, 11:27 AM   #5895
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommi
Things ARE indeed getting a little bit out of hand......but you got the message, it's really down to tire selection.

So I guess your choice would be the new Jacos on Serpent rims? Serpent rims are 1mm offset, no? Nevermind, let's take it as it's a 0mm offset rim, go with the 006 then, and get the 3Racing 1mm offset wheel hex, no "band-aid" fix of using a 1mm shim... On the VSW007, if ever it helps to get that "band-aid" thing off your mind and restore some of your faith in them, Josh Cyrul used it at the 2005 ROAR GP NATS...

The Serpent wheels are 0 offset.

If the shim is good enough for Josh, it's good enough for me.
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