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Old 10-06-2010, 09:47 AM   #121
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Steve, I agree. The established classes, especially those that are under the umbrella of IFMAR competition, are well-established and won't benefit from change for the sake of change. These classes have had many years for the rules to sort themselves out, so I wouldn't advocate any changes. Other than addressing new developments in the class that may conflict with existing rules, I think ROAR's time is better spent addressing and refining the developing categories, especially those that will attract newcomers.

I agree with your sentiment about the rules - I much prefer to just show up and race without having to put your car through a gauntlet of rigs and gigs. Nobody enjoys that part of racing, especially at the Nationals, but were all suddenly much more fond of the rules when someone else is breaking them. ;o)
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Old 10-06-2010, 09:49 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Orange View Post
Fuel onroad does not use qual points anymore... haven't for a few years now.
If "Fuel on-road does not use qual points" then what system was used in this years On Road Nationals in Nebraska as well as last year in Ohio and previous years in Cincinnati, Las Vegas, Maryland etc..? I'm Lost!
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Old 10-06-2010, 10:12 AM   #123
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Any time you have a competition, you need rules. ROAR has for some time been trying to come up with rules that make it fair to everyone and make some sense. The problem has been if you show the rules to one group of racers they will love them and race by them. Then you show them to another group and they're like what the heck, who thinks this stuff up? After which you of course have your 50+ treads here on RC Tech saying how stupid the rules are and how much ROAR sucks.

Personally I don't think the president should be involved with rules making. There should be a separate committee working on that. The president's job should be, like you said, to try and grow the hobby.

Oh, and the basher to racer index is more like 100 to 1.
Jim, it sounds like you've been at this a while. LOL Rules are necessary and sometimes it's not apparent to everyone. The job is a tough one and ROAR relies on its many dedicated volunteers to make everything happen, so it's not always as fast as we'd like because everyone's time is split between ROAR and their daily lives. I think better communication will help to alleviate some of the vitriol that results from some of the rule proposals. At the suggestion of someone who I've known for a long time in the business, I think it's worthwhile to consider posting proposals on the ROAR forum (see more below) for member feedback prior to calling an ExCom vote. If nothing else, it will help to explain some of the background behind the various proposals, which might help clear up some of the confusion. Even that may not allay the fears, criticism and rhetoric of some, but better communication between ROAR and the members will almost certainly help to create a better understanding.

At Dawn's request, I've been working on installing forums on the ROAR site. They're already up and functional, but they're not open for members yet while we're trying to sort out the verification of the members. I'm working towards opening it up to members for the aforementioned purpose.
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Old 10-06-2010, 10:15 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
Any time you have a competition, you need rules. ROAR has for some time been trying to come up with rules that make it fair to everyone and make some sense. The problem has been if you show the rules to one group of racers they will love them and race by them. Then you show them to another group and they're like what the heck, who thinks this stuff up? After which you of course have your 50+ treads here on RC Tech saying how stupid the rules are and how much ROAR sucks.

Personally I don't think the president should be involved with rules making. There should be a separate committee working on that. The president's job should be, like you said, to try and grow the hobby.

Oh, and the basher to racer index is more like 100 to 1.
I agree with this.

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Originally Posted by SteveP View Post
Steve, I agree. The established classes, especially those that are under the umbrella of IFMAR competition, are well-established and won't benefit from change for the sake of change. These classes have had many years for the rules to sort themselves out, so I wouldn't advocate any changes. Other than addressing new developments in the class that may conflict with existing rules, I think ROAR's time is better spent addressing and refining the developing categories, especially those that will attract newcomers.

I agree with your sentiment about the rules - I much prefer to just show up and race without having to put your car through a gauntlet of rigs and gigs. Nobody enjoys that part of racing, especially at the Nationals, but were all suddenly much more fond of the rules when someone else is breaking them. ;o)
I know we need rules, but I dont like to see therules constantly being messed with, I know that in other classes is more complicated, though. I dont mind teching my car either, I think thats part of any motorsport.

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If "Fuel on-road does not use qual points" then what system was used in this years On Road Nationals in Nebraska as well as last year in Ohio and previous years in Cincinnati, Las Vegas, Maryland etc..? I'm Lost!
Exaclty!!
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Old 10-06-2010, 10:26 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Team Kamikaze View Post
If "Fuel on-road does not use qual points" then what system was used in this years On Road Nationals in Nebraska as well as last year in Ohio and previous years in Cincinnati, Las Vegas, Maryland etc..? I'm Lost!
Yes your right, I was thinking electric and worlds

Last edited by Orange; 10-06-2010 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 10-06-2010, 11:03 AM   #126
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If rules are going to be enforced then It should be same all time from to you sign up to the end. We can not just pick & choose which rule we are going to enforce or who is in violation. This is were we set up selfs for failure.
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Old 10-06-2010, 11:06 AM   #127
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As in every organazation there is a chain of comand if there is conflict or rule violation, needs to start at bottom, it might be able to work it's way out with out getting others involved.
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Old 10-06-2010, 11:34 AM   #128
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Jim, it sounds like you've been at this a while.
Yea but not as long as you.
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Old 10-06-2010, 11:46 AM   #129
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If rules are going to be enforced then It should be same all time from to you sign up to the end. We can not just pick & choose which rule we are going to enforce or who is in violation. This is were we set up selfs for failure.
I agree with you Robert... But as with any auto racing new developments in technology dictate the rules sometimes and sometimes things need adjusting...

And I have not met anyone ever that doesn't stand firm that rules are rules and they should be enforced no matter what.... I got DQ'd from a race a few years ago for trimming about 1/8" inch corner off a number so that it didn't interfere with a shock... The rules said "No trimming numbers" (That rule has been adjusted since then because lap counting systems are a permanent feature just about everywhere now and also required for ROAR Nationals.) I said "I didn't trim the number, I trimmed the body, the number got in the way, "

(My wife dq'd me for that as she was the ROAR official at the race, )

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Last edited by Orange; 10-06-2010 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 10-06-2010, 11:48 AM   #130
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Steven, I think you missed the part where I said that I'm generally not in favor of changing the rules in the established IFMAR classes. I don't recall off the top of my head, but other than the changes to the qualifying process, which was made by a President that was from the 1/8 on-road community, has there been any rule changes in 1/8 on-road in the last ten years? I'm asking sincerely because I don't recall one.

Robert and others who brought up the following point - There are fuel and electric committees, and their function is to address the rules and submit the proposal to the ExCom, at which point the President will vote on it with the rest of the ExCom. So, it does generally work in that manner already. Robert, I can't speak to the enforcement of the rules as I probably didn't witness what you must have in order to feel that way, but I wouldn't support someone who doesn't enforce the rules as written.
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Old 10-06-2010, 12:09 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by SteveP View Post
Steven, I think you missed the part where I said that I'm generally not in favor of changing the rules in the established IFMAR classes. I don't recall off the top of my head, but other than the changes to the qualifying process, which was made by a President that was from the 1/8 on-road community, has there been any rule changes in 1/8 on-road in the last ten years? I'm asking sincerely because I don't recall one.
Only minor ones. IFMAR put in new pipe rules but ROAR hasn't followed them on that as 2 chamber pipes are still legal. Same with the 25% nitro limit. Then we all have INS boxes now. There is some discussion about a rear body height rule but nothing yet. That's pretty much it. IMO, that's why big 1/8th and 1/10th nitro TC events are still drawing good crowds while electric is struggling. The rules and technology have been simple and the same for years and you really just have two classes.

Meanwhile, the electric scene has (to paraphrase Bruce Springsteen) 57 classes and no one racing. The rules, class structure, equipment, etc seem to change on a weekly basis. And now just when the speedo wars were finally settling down and evening out, along comes fixed timing classes. If it wasn't for snow and my love of 1/12th, I would never run electric again.
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Old 10-06-2010, 12:13 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert R View Post
If rules are going to be enforced then It should be same all time from to you sign up to the end. We can not just pick & choose which rule we are going to enforce or who is in violation. This is were we set up selfs for failure.
You are right that if a rule is going to be enforced, it should be enforced on all people fairly and evenly for the entire event.

I think we can pick and choose which rules are enforced and how they are enforced depending on the event and the specific situations as long as what I said initially is stays true.

We can definitely decide who is in violation and who is not... once again as long as it is applied evenly to all participants.

Some rules have the possibility of a warning, others have the possibility of suspension. Some are more significant than others thereby warranting more stringent enforcement.


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Old 10-06-2010, 12:56 PM   #133
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Only minor ones. IFMAR put in new pipe rules but ROAR hasn't followed them on that as 2 chamber pipes are still legal. Same with the 25% nitro limit. Then we all have INS boxes now. There is some discussion about a rear body height rule but nothing yet. That's pretty much it. IMO, that's why big 1/8th and 1/10th nitro TC events are still drawing good crowds while electric is struggling. The rules and technology have been simple and the same for years and you really just have two classes.

Meanwhile, the electric scene has (to paraphrase Bruce Springsteen) 57 classes and no one racing. The rules, class structure, equipment, etc seem to change on a weekly basis. And now just when the speedo wars were finally settling down and evening out, along comes fixed timing classes. If it wasn't for snow and my love of 1/12th, I would never run electric again.
Agreed 100%. Sean I plan on running nitro right up until first snow storm in CT..ha!

Seems roar has lost their path in the electric area...should be looking at ifmar/efra again for example...open and 1 limited/spec class that is it!
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Old 10-06-2010, 01:43 PM   #134
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Yes electric needs alot of help right now. I have been to alot of races nitro and electric. And out of all the guys running for prez Steve seems to pop up at a lot of them. Roar prez is just not one class but all of them. The other guys seem to stay in there neck of the woods.

Thanks Drew
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Old 10-06-2010, 04:36 PM   #135
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Fuel onroad does not use qual points anymore... haven't for a few years now.
The only on-road class that DOES NOT use qual points is electric carpet on-road which uses rocket round and possibly 5th scale. Otherwise 10th and 8th fuel onroad, 10th and 12th paved electric all use qual points.
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