R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Nitro On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-15-2010, 06:49 AM   #16
Tech Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 600
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

You have a point and you are right my bad
HoboShop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010, 06:58 AM   #17
Tech Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 600
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

You are right and you have a point, but a chassis can be faster than another chassis.
HoboShop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010, 07:51 AM   #18
Tech Elite
 
JLock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: North Dallas, TX
Posts: 4,455
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

Hoboshop,

This is more than just the chassis. The pics show that there is little variation in their design between brands. It is more about how efficient the drivetrain is from one brand to the next. With everything else being the same (engine, clutch, clutchbell/spur gears, etc), the car with the better drive ratio will be faster. This is why in electric touring, it is hard to beat the Xray car (has the lowest internal ratio at 1.7 whereas everyone else are in the low 2s).
__________________
Texas 5
It's not what you know; it's what you can prove.
The only thing that is for sure is that nothing is for sure!!!
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
There are 2 things in life that are infinite: the universe and stupidity.
JLock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010, 10:13 AM   #19
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,276
Trader Rating: 13 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sp Racer View Post
where's the chassis shot of the G4RS '09 ?
Post a picture, I would love to see it too since I have driven all of the other cars except the g4 series. If you have square overview shots we should start looking at upper deck designs as well to learn where the flex is in each car.

lil-bump, if you missed my point I will simplify it for you. For every "revolutionary" change each manufacturer promises, they end up basically copying someone else except for a few. This isn't a 'VS' thread, so I am not taking any sides and don't drive any of the cars involved at the moment but I have driven all of them mentioned except the g4.

I half expected either the Losi or Xray offroad cars to have belt drive or something really revolutionary when they had their spy shots released but again.. just a copy with minor improvements. Or perhaps shaft drive for a nitro sedan, something.. I know its a copy of electric and there is really only one way to get the power from the mid bulkhead to the front but there has to be some ingenuity somewhere?
__________________
Support those that support us

https://ActivRC.com http://TeamPowersUSA.net https://www.1upracing.com/ http://TeamAssociated.com
Brian Bosley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010, 10:57 AM   #20
Tech Master
 
DS Motorsport's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,440
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

I think the reason for all cars looking alike is the fact that designing an RC car is quite simple and straightforward. With all the modern cad and simulation programs pretty much everyone with an engineering degree and a copy of race car vehicle dynamics (by Milliken recommend it to everyone who wants to know the true principles of race car setup) could design an RC car.
And because it all is relatively simple, everyone starts to draw the same conclusions and the computer analyzing will show, for instance which is the best chassis design for a certain amount of flex and certain handling characteristics. Because of CNC-machining getting cheaper (China) you will see more complicated designs and more aluminum, but the basic geometry will stay pretty much the same.
Furthermore you could easily spot that the RC cars generations.
The old generation of 720, MTX-4, v-one blabla and NT1. The next generation was started by the 733 and followed by the Velox V10. The Capricorn is somewhat between both generations, I would call it an evolved NT1.

Regarding Question 1:
You will see some small differences, like different springrates and antirollbars. But the basic setup would be very much alike, at least this is my experience with identical 1:1 racecars.
The small difference are mainly because of driver preference, some prefer a little understeer, some a little oversteer.
__________________
P1-RC.com
DS Motorsport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010, 01:25 PM   #21
Tech Master
 
Sp Racer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,624
Trader Rating: 8 (100%+)
Default

I agree that the basic geometry stays the same -

IMHO the handling differences comes from weight distribution and the material strength i.e. the firmness ( is that even a word ) of the plastics on the arms .
Sp Racer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010, 02:52 PM   #22
Tech Elite
 
lil-bump's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Cold Great Lakes
Posts: 2,963
Trader Rating: 83 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Bosley View Post
Post a picture, I would love to see it too since I have driven all of the other cars except the g4 series. If you have square overview shots we should start looking at upper deck designs as well to learn where the flex is in each car.

lil-bump, if you missed my point I will simplify it for you. For every "revolutionary" change each manufacturer promises, they end up basically copying someone else except for a few. This isn't a 'VS' thread, so I am not taking any sides and don't drive any of the cars involved at the moment but I have driven all of them mentioned except the g4.

I half expected either the Losi or Xray offroad cars to have belt drive or something really revolutionary when they had their spy shots released but again.. just a copy with minor improvements. Or perhaps shaft drive for a nitro sedan, something.. I know its a copy of electric and there is really only one way to get the power from the mid bulkhead to the front but there has to be some ingenuity somewhere?
Thanks for the clarification. But I believe I figured it out.

I'm about as sharp as a bowling ball
__________________
Elliott Hart
Serpent America
Desoto Racing Team
Chicky fan club member #9
One Eighth Racers of Toledo
lil-bump is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2010, 03:34 PM   #23
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,276
Trader Rating: 13 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS Motorsport View Post
I think the reason for all cars looking alike is the fact that designing an RC car is quite simple and straightforward. With all the modern cad and simulation programs pretty much everyone with an engineering degree and a copy of race car vehicle dynamics (by Milliken recommend it to everyone who wants to know the true principles of race car setup) could design an RC car.
And because it all is relatively simple, everyone starts to draw the same conclusions and the computer analyzing will show, for instance which is the best chassis design for a certain amount of flex and certain handling characteristics. Because of CNC-machining getting cheaper (China) you will see more complicated designs and more aluminum, but the basic geometry will stay pretty much the same.
Furthermore you could easily spot that the RC cars generations.
The old generation of 720, MTX-4, v-one blabla and NT1. The next generation was started by the 733 and followed by the Velox V10. The Capricorn is somewhat between both generations, I would call it an evolved NT1.

Regarding Question 1:
You will see some small differences, like different springrates and antirollbars. But the basic setup would be very much alike, at least this is my experience with identical 1:1 racecars.
The small difference are mainly because of driver preference, some prefer a little understeer, some a little oversteer.
This may actually be the point, everyone in the RC industry is going through the same schools, reading the same books and using the same programs unlike when the industry started and some guy drank some sake and just drew it on a napkin and bam we had the grasshopper.. So when you have a limited set of dimensions to work with and then principals to work around (cog, balance, narrow diffs/long arms and such) you apparently end up with nearly the same stress points so the main differences become the materials.

I watched Serpent first hand testing new plastics for the 733 that they believed were dramatically better than their original set although one team driver believes that the original plastics have their moment to shine and he is storing them until that moment. Perhaps more durable or perhaps faster, I am not sure of their exact findings.
__________________
Support those that support us

https://ActivRC.com http://TeamPowersUSA.net https://www.1upracing.com/ http://TeamAssociated.com
Brian Bosley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010, 02:17 AM   #24
Tech Elite
 
stefan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Posts: 3,273
Send a message via AIM to stefan
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoboShop View Post
They my look similar but they don't perform the same! Get over it the kyosho and the xray are better cars then the mugen. I can show you laptimes of drivers who use to drive the mtx4r and are now faster with the 733,vonerrr evo2 wc,nt1. The mtx4r is great car had one 2years ago with all the hopups made for the car but I was alot faster with the vonerrr evo2 wc last year. This year I am going to run the nt1 ec to see how I like it. I don't go off of what other people say about motors, and cars, I buy them a test them out my self. So stop these stupid mtx4r vs the world threads the car is outdated. By the way the only reason why the mtx4r won the 2006 worlds is because Andrea rossi broke Chris toso car when he was up by over 2 laps on the entire field. And it still took him the whole race to reel Chris in even through he was driveing with a broken front suspension. Kyosho tqed at every 10 scale world chamionship and either won or had two cars on the podium. Enough said!!!!!
I can tell you that it's mostly about the driver.

When Robert Pietsch drags his bone stock MTX4-R to one of our regionals, he usually puts at least a lap on all of those newer cars out there.

I have actually overheard strong supporters of brand X or Y considering to buy a Mugen, since Robert can't be that much faster

Yes, the MTX4 is an old car, but when you UNDERSTAND it, it's still very competitive.
I'm not saying I do, but there's certainly people out there who do.
stefan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010, 03:29 AM   #25
Tech Elite
 
rmdhawaii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,804
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sp Racer View Post
where's the chassis shot of the G4RS '09 ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Bosley View Post
Post a picture, I would love to see it too
Bah! Here you go. Earlier G4XX series on left, G4RS on right.

__________________
Nitro Knowledge Base: http://nitrokb.netne.net
My YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/nitrokb -> Lots of on-road nitro & eletric action + some off-road as well
My Flickr Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nitrokb/
Kyosho V-ONE RRR WC (x2) \ XRAY T2'007 \ Also owned: XRAY NT1 & Mugen MTX-4

Last edited by rmdhawaii; 01-16-2010 at 03:54 AM.
rmdhawaii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010, 03:44 AM   #26
Tech Elite
 
rmdhawaii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,804
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default

Slapped Together History of Rear Camber Links

Move convergence ...

I can't begin to tell you what a pain it was to create this. This is the best I could do given the limited images and dates available on the internet. If something is wrong, please let me know so I can fix it.

__________________
Nitro Knowledge Base: http://nitrokb.netne.net
My YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/nitrokb -> Lots of on-road nitro & eletric action + some off-road as well
My Flickr Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nitrokb/
Kyosho V-ONE RRR WC (x2) \ XRAY T2'007 \ Also owned: XRAY NT1 & Mugen MTX-4

Last edited by rmdhawaii; 01-16-2010 at 04:02 AM.
rmdhawaii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010, 03:51 AM   #27
Tech Regular
 
staikosn1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Greece
Posts: 295
Send a message via MSN to staikosn1
Default

I actually think that mugen always was upgraded when others brands had upgrades as optionals....Seems the easier car 1/10 atm....
But i have to notice that xray makes the different cause indifferent the set up you use simply it works!!
__________________
XRAY NT1 || RB T10 RC || FUTABA BLS || SANWA M11 ||
#FANATIX MODELS# #www.frt.gr#
staikosn1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010, 03:52 AM   #28
Tech Elite
 
rmdhawaii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,804
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default

Question:

Yes or No? Since everyone isn't converging to the same design independently and at the same time, as you map changes over time, does innovation give the first company to implement a change a competitive advantage over the other cars until the other companies implement a similar design change?
__________________
Nitro Knowledge Base: http://nitrokb.netne.net
My YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/nitrokb -> Lots of on-road nitro & eletric action + some off-road as well
My Flickr Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nitrokb/
Kyosho V-ONE RRR WC (x2) \ XRAY T2'007 \ Also owned: XRAY NT1 & Mugen MTX-4

Last edited by rmdhawaii; 01-16-2010 at 04:09 AM.
rmdhawaii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010, 08:50 AM   #29
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,276
Trader Rating: 13 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmdhawaii View Post
Question:

Yes or No? Since everyone isn't converging to the same design independently and at the same time, as you map changes over time, does innovation give the first company to implement a change a competitive advantage over the other cars until the other companies implement a similar design change?
I would say yes at a pro level. If you look at Formula 1, it is the first team that can adapt to the seasons new rules that is drastically faster (0.5s per lap sometimes) and then the rest catch up mid season too late to score any points but they all get there independently.

I race formula ford, spec miata and 125cc shifter light and I can tell you that there are guys out there that spend 10x the normal budget on their cars and yes they are a tiny bit better but a driver is more important at the grass roots level but a pro driver and a 10x budget car is hard to beat.
__________________
Support those that support us

https://ActivRC.com http://TeamPowersUSA.net https://www.1upracing.com/ http://TeamAssociated.com
Brian Bosley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2010, 09:14 AM   #30
Tech Champion
 
asw7576's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,792
Default

Do you guys prefer driving with 3mm or 4mm chassis ?

Can you feel the handling differences ?
__________________
On Road : Xray NT1 , RX8 , T4 || Mugen Seiki MRX4-R , MTX4 , MTX3 prospec || Tamiya M03 , M04 || Top Racing Sabre FD2
Off Road : Xray XT8 || Hobao Hyper 8
Radio : Futaba 3PKS || KO propo EX-10 eurus
asw7576 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 08:22 PM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net