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Old 01-11-2004, 11:39 PM   #16
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It`s a great point by Kmac (90deg angle and mod tips)... and the Futaba S9550 is the best servo to achieve that configuration without mod and spacers.. I guess that`s what cartman trying to say all along huh?
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Old 01-12-2004, 09:03 PM   #17
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I've read Kmac's post on this topic... Very good info as I've posted for other's to read his tread... But there is more to the steering issue then just the linkage. To say to bring up the build quality is BS... Come on now... Team Magic and Triinty both admit that there are some issues with it. GMP has an Alum unit that is more bullet proof then the stock plastic unit. Cleaning the unit properly will help, using the proper lubricant will also help. The stock servo saver is an issue as G4 owner's would testify too. You will have some good ones built by Team Magic and some not so good. I really wish Trinity will do a page on it's website as to how to properly maintain the steering assembly... To bash one another or say that someone's opinion is BS... We are all adults here I hope... I'm not the only G4 owner in SoCal that has seen this problem... Some of the G4 owners are Team drivers of other companies... Have called Trinity about this issue and they are very much aware of it. GMP makes an Alum servo saver of a reason... Kmac's post will help alot of owners build there steering linkage correctly, but there are many more factors in what's right and wrong with the total steering assembly... I will never knock someones posts, problem or idea and I'm sure Kmac didn't intend to as well. No one here design this car nor has all the answers to the how to's ect. But just to share our finding's and help each other where we can. I called Trinity about this... Believe me, there is an issue and they are aware of it and so is Team Magic. If your car is perfect... And your steering is working for you... Great... For those who are having problems... Follow Kmac's post, use a small, high quality digital servo for your steering and if you still have a problem... Call Trinity for support

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Old 01-12-2004, 09:50 PM   #18
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How many ways can I say it......the steering issue isn't the linkage.......it's the twisting of the servo saver on the steering rails. A loose servo saver is allowed to twist more on the rails. The twisting force (torque) comes from the fact the force acting on the servo saver is off center. The linkage mod only reduces the distance off center and therefore reduces the torque. Reduced torque will increase longevity of the servo saver.

Primarily, though, the servo saver has to be tight to function correctly. When it is tight the unit can't physically twist on the rails. When the unit is twisted back and forth [THIS] is what oblongs the bearing surface in the servo saver.

Is it a difficult design to adjust properly? Yes.

Is it a good functioning design when adjusted properly? Yes.

The real problem here is beginning with maladjusted rails, leading to accelerated wear on the servo saver, then blaming the servo saver or the mfr for the problem. Simple engineering cuts right to the chase of this problem: Don't allow the servo saver to twist (by adjusting it properly and firmly) and it will operate correctly. To do this though, you MUST use an upgraded servo to overcome the additional resistance of the firm operation of the steering system.

I'm not criticizing anybody; but there are a lot of people out there who are misdiagnosing this problem and focusing on one of the symptoms, NOT the problem.

As far as the GPM aluminum piece. It is going to require the rails to be aligned even better than the plastic one because the aluminum won't "give" as easily as the plastic and will bind more easily.

Frankly, the best solution would have been for the piece to come from the mfr prebuilt and adjusted with the servo saver already on the rails with fixed end pieces. I'm sure hindsight is 20/20 on that one.
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Old 01-13-2004, 01:01 AM   #19
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Kmac, your last statement is correct... It would have be simpler to have had the whole steering assembly prebuilt and the rail mounts fixed... As for the servo saver itself... I think we're going around and around on this... I believe for the most part, most of us have built our cars properly. The part in question is not the linkage but the servo saver. If the steering rails are not mounted correctly, problems will occur. If the steering linkage is not built correctly... problems will occur. Now if these area's are done as per the owners manual and we still have this problem with the servo saver binding on the rails... We must look a little closer to see what's causing this problem. Are the rails bent?? If yes... Change the rails and problem solved.. If the rails are A-1 straight and smooth, then we must take a closer look at 1. the servo saver and 2. the rail mounts . As per pg. 11 step 4, kmac is correct in quoting this, but if and when you change your servo saver and you see the Alum insert are not completely round, this could be your problem. I for one went to my lhs and the sell's rep and myself looked at 5 servo savers and found that only one was almost completely round and the other 4 were not. They weren't even close.. You have to examine closely the servo saver before you buy them... Some will work perfectly and some are just from a bad batch... Like I said before, GMP's Alum servo saver has a Teflon insert that is completly round... The stock one's are crimped, thus the possibilty of some bad apple's ie.. servo savers... GMP's servo saver are much better then stock and will not cause more problems. The servo saver is not solid Alum. Where the rails ride through are teflon. Take a look at them GMP's website or see them on RCmart.com. I'm not trying to say what Kmac is saying is not correct, what I am saying is that there is alittle more to this whole issue. If you follow Kmac's posting... Most of you G4 owners will be in the ball park, running with no problems. Those few that have followed the owners manual to the tee and are still having problems... Check your mounts and your servo saver. K-factory has Alum mounts... Might be something to look into as well... And if all else fails... There is always Trinity Tech support...
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Old 01-13-2004, 05:50 AM   #20
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I have the K factory servo saver it too only lasted about 10-15 tanks. The only difference with the stock one is it is made of anodised aluminium, the sleeve is still a not perfect round metal. So I think it is not worth buying it. If you want to replace yours just buy the stock one. I have yet to try the GPM with teflon sleeve one.
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Old 01-13-2004, 08:46 AM   #21
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dameetz.. My bad.. The inserts on the GPM servo saver are not Teflon, but Delrin. I hear they're pretty good... I should have the order in next week and I'll post back my findings. I also think it would be wise to get the Alum steering rail mounts as well. Assemble the steerings rails and the servo saver as per the owners manual and any tips gained my kmac's post and all should be good.



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Old 01-13-2004, 06:17 PM   #22
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Quote:
How many ways can I say it......the steering issue isn't the linkage.......it's the twisting of the servo saver on the steering rails. A loose servo saver is allowed to twist more on the rails. The twisting force (torque) comes from the fact the force acting on the servo saver is off center. The linkage mod only reduces the distance off center and therefore reduces the torque. Reduced torque will increase longevity of the servo saver.

Primarily, though, the servo saver has to be tight to function correctly. When it is tight the unit can't physically twist on the rails. When the unit is twisted back and forth [THIS] is what oblongs the bearing surface in the servo saver.

Is it a difficult design to adjust properly? Yes.

Is it a good functioning design when adjusted properly? Yes.

The real problem here is beginning with maladjusted rails, leading to accelerated wear on the servo saver, then blaming the servo saver or the mfr for the problem. Simple engineering cuts right to the chase of this problem: Don't allow the servo saver to twist (by adjusting it properly and firmly) and it will operate correctly. To do this though, you MUST use an upgraded servo to overcome the additional resistance of the firm operation of the steering system.

I'm not criticizing anybody; but there are a lot of people out there who are misdiagnosing this problem and focusing on one of the symptoms, NOT the problem.

As far as the GPM aluminum piece. It is going to require the rails to be aligned even better than the plastic one because the aluminum won't "give" as easily as the plastic and will bind more easily.

Frankly, the best solution would have been for the piece to come from the mfr prebuilt and adjusted with the servo saver already on the rails with fixed end pieces. I'm sure hindsight is 20/20 on that one.
How many times have you run your G4 since adjusting your rack?

I could NEVER get my rack to stay consistant after a single race, much less getting it to stay for an entire day!!! All the adjusting in the world WILL NOT prevent the inserts in the servo saver from wearing at an odd angle, casuing binding in the rack NO MATTER HOW TIGHT you set it up. 5 steering servos broken in one afternoon was all it took for me to consider selling/trading the G4. That idea, while impresive in design, gets an "F" for real world use and practicality. Far too much work and maintenance for the average RC'er. One drop of fuel and one speck of dirt, and the rack is again binding.

Great car, I was very impressed out of the box, in fact I reset our local track lap record with a box stock (sprinsg and all) G4 first time out. After that it started to get ugly!
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Old 01-13-2004, 06:31 PM   #23
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NitroJohnnyD... Don't give up on the G4 just yet. All new cars have growing pains... RCmart has the Alum steering rail mount for $9.00 and the Alum servo saver for about the same price. Follow Kmac's posts and my posts and I'm sure you'll be dialed-in in no time. Use the dust covers and graphite powder on the rails also. No car is perfect out the box.. But you too know what kind of car this can be once the few minor bugs are corrected. Some drivers will have no problems and a few will. Bullet proof the area and your problems are solved. And like I said before, if you just can't get it corrected after trying everything, Give Trinity and Team Magic a call. I do remember when I had my NTC3... it had issue's as well.. No car as new as the G4 will be with out some issues... That's apart of the hobby... But all can be fixed....

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Old 01-13-2004, 06:37 PM   #24
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No offense, NitroJohnnyD, but if you broke 5 servo savers in one day you were doing something WAY wrong. Even a poorly adjusted servo saver shouldn't break like that.

I ran my car 3 times a week from September thru November, almost 2 1/2 gallons through it in that time. My G4 still has the same adjustment on the steering system it as it originally did. No BS!! It's been set once and is still there, and tight, today. BTW, during that time I whacked my fair share of boards (frankly, I whacked other people's fair share of boards as well) and haven't even broken a piece on this car yet. This car is freakin' tough! In the same amount of time I've broken countless parts on my son's TC3.

I don't know what to tell you more than I already have. My G4 is adjusted well and functioning perfectly (as far as steering goes). Two other people that run the same car, although they haven't run as much as mine, haven't been having problems either. Their steering setup feels just like mine.
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Old 01-13-2004, 07:34 PM   #25
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Thanks for your guys help.

Below are our suggestions: (I quote some sentences from KMac)

1. Don't allow the servo saver to twist (by adjusting it properly and firmly) and it will operate correctly. The servo saver has to be tight to function correctly. When it is tight the unit can't physically twist on the rails.

Adjust towards the front to tighten. It doesn't take a lot, either. When the tension is proper it will take a little effort to move the servo saver back and forth, BUT it should be smooth and not jerky or get progressively tighter. This is why standard servos don't cut it with this steering system.

2. Please remember to use dust foam on the servo saver & use a drop of silicone oil on each foam. These foams are very very important to prevent the dust from going inside the metal sleeve position.

3. Please make sure that the servo saver is really a servo saver. If it works, there shouldn't be any servos broken. Please don't overtighten the servo saver tension spring. If you overtighen the spring, there will be no "Saver" function.

Below is my MSN. Feel free to talk with us.
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Old 01-13-2004, 08:00 PM   #26
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Quote:
NitroJohnnyD... Don't give up on the G4 just yet. All new cars have growing pains... RCmart has the Alum steering rail mount for $9.00 and the Alum servo saver for about the same price. Follow Kmac's posts and my posts and I'm sure you'll be dialed-in in no time. Use the dust covers and graphite powder on the rails also. No car is perfect out the box.. But you too know what kind of car this can be once the few minor bugs are corrected. Some drivers will have no problems and a few will. Bullet proof the area and your problems are solved. And like I said before, if you just can't get it corrected after trying everything, Give Trinity and Team Magic a call. I do remember when I had my NTC3... it had issue's as well.. No car as new as the G4 will be with out some issues... That's apart of the hobby... But all can be fixed....
I should have prefaced my comments by saying that Team Magic, Nick & Alan (the same Alan I am assuming!) are great to deal with. I had a warranty item on my first G4 that TRINITY was a little wishy washy about and those guys took care of me like I was a factory driver!

The G4 is an awesome car. No question. The problem lays with the real world usage sometimes. For example you may find certain items on a Pro's car that you think is ultra trick. Then you run out and buy it, only to find out it is junk after 3 races, Why you ask? Because the sponsored guy gets everything new every race!

I started to modify my G4 by using a KYOSHO EVO kit steering assembly and was in the process of having a custom carbon fiber radio plate made that would mount the steering servo upside down (ala Serpent, Reflex, etc.) and have a lot less chance for slack & play.

As far as Kmac saying that I had something way wrong, I can appreciate his opinion and observation. However there is no way for him to know exactly how meticulos I am with my cars and how many hours I take just setting everything for each race. The G4 was no different. I spent hours and hours massaging that steering set-up. I went so far as to install center ground tubes in the steering servo saver that were exact to thousanths of an inch to minimize the play. I think more than anything the problem could be traced to the flex of the plastic bulkheads. Everytime I got hit, or hit a pipe/wall with the nose of the car, BAM, broken steering servo. Yes, even the metal geared ones too. When you make contact with the nose, the front bulkheads flex, this flexing causes the rails to misalign. The resulting misalingment during contact is was jams the servo saver causing the servo damage.

Anyway, please don't misunderstand me. The G4 is an awesome car, very, very lightweight (bone stock I might add), handles excellent and it well made. The steering design, in my opinion, is a questionable move for the average RC user. Too many tolerances to keep adjusted and clean.

A custom machined radio tray, with a stand up servo mount and the KYOSHO EVO steering and the car would be 100% perfect.
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Old 01-13-2004, 08:33 PM   #27
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Default Installed evo steering

I had simalar problems with the slide on my g4.It was actually the stock servo saver that was breaking.After 2 replacement slides bought from trinity.I encountered the sticking slide problem.I don't have time to take the frt end apart as often as necessary to keep it functioning.I have installed the evo steering on my g4.I had to make a aluminum arm for the evo servo saver to get the input in the right direction.I'm using the servo mounted in the std location and the new pivot or bellcrank works sweet.
Don't get me wrong the slide is impressive and different.I was very frustrated with the whole thing.There is nothing worse than breaking every time you go out with no local parts availability.The evo steering is not a direct replacement like I was told,but I have accomplished it.Hopefully everyone else is not having this problem.This car rocks and I hope that I can race consistantly now.
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Old 01-13-2004, 09:12 PM   #28
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lastresort- Can you post the pics to convert the G4 steering system to Evo?
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Old 01-13-2004, 10:17 PM   #29
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Please feel free to share the modification with us. Thanks.

Normally, people overtighten the servo saver spring. We guess this is the main reason the servo broken. The servo saver is supposed to "PROTECT" the servo, not damage the servo.

If you overtighten the servo saver spring, the servo saver is just a servo disc (horn), not saver.
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Old 01-14-2004, 07:42 AM   #30
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Nickko I think most people overtighten their servo saver because they want to have full throw of the block. This had happened to me when my servo saver block worn out and has lots of play. I found out that the servo saver binds and not giving me full throw so what I did was tighten it up. Fortunately for me I m using my trusted Hitec 5925 servo which can take the abuse. I have yet to try KMac advice to tighten the movement of the block. Anyhow you do mention of trying to improve the design. If you can try not make the sleeve out of metal replace it with somekind of roller bearing instead or maybe a very hard worn but smooth plastic like Teflon or Delrin (like GPM). Then again this is just my suggestion maybe you and your team designer has already come up with something.
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