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Old 09-07-2009, 08:15 PM   #766
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Originally Posted by PrimeAKF11 View Post
Wow, I didn't expect so many would try to help out . Thanks everyone!!!

gtrmx- EXACTLY! My car was suffering both from off throttle understeer and on throttle oversteer. Aside from not being able to turn in early, I pretty much couldn't apply any throttle unless the car was pointing straight.

I go to that track every weekend so I'll be able to experiment with your advises. After this weekend I won't be able to race until October but there is still enough time to try out other setups.

The reason I went so soft on the shock oil was because of this particular spot at the back straight. There's a series of subtle undulations and if the car isn't damped softly the bumps will bounce the front end enough for the air to get under the car (keep in mind at this point the car is traveling close to 50 mph and still accelerating). When that happens the whole car will lift off nose first like an airplane, flip mid air and crash badly. I learned it the hard way after pulling the same stunt three times and breaking a lot of stuff. It's quite a sight; it doesn't look like the car is jumping off a ramp like most would imagine but rather like an airplane taking off slowly. I wish I have my car doing that on tape.


impalabob64- I forgot to mention that while I was suffering from lack of steering, the car didn't seem to have much grip at the same time. Should I try lower shore tires instead in this case?


Gmac and Miles- Thanks for the tips! I still don't have a firm grasp on the concept of droop and how it affects the car. I know the rear camber looks a bit excessive but anything other than that my car will cone the rear tires. I'm thinking maybe I'm using too soft of springs so the car is rolling excessively. I'll be there this Sunday and hope to see you guys.

And I do agree that there is a definite performance difference between the newest chassis and those a generation older. When I switched from my old RS 08 to the current car, I shaved off .4 seconds from my previous best lap time with the new car in stock setup. That 733 of yours also definitely looked faster than the Mugen.

Miles, I think now I know what you were talking about when you complained about lack of power some time ago. With my new evo4 I picked up a lot of excess power over my worn out TZ, and now I can pull on most everyone on the straight save perhaps Dorian and Gmac. Funny thing is, when I was practicing, a fellow racer who was on the stand with me at the time pointed out that my lines were all over the place (I had just put on a high grip clutch shoe so I still wasn't used to the power delivery). I acknowledged that and we began uh, a friendly grudge race . Guess what happened... I still owned him. He was definitely driving a much cleaner line but every time there was anything that resembled a straight (remember every spot that connects an apex to an apex is essentially a straight section) I distanced him. Let's not even mention the back stretch where I was putting at least 30ft lead on him. After like 4 laps I almost had a half lap on him and then he pulled into the pit. I don't think he was too happy .
Your tire size looks kinda small for a low bite track i would go 59.5 front 61.5rear or 60front/62rear .
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Old 09-08-2009, 01:31 AM   #767
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Originally Posted by PrimeAKF11 View Post
Gmac and Miles- Thanks for the tips! I still don't have a firm grasp on the concept of droop and how it affects the car. I know the rear camber looks a bit excessive but anything other than that my car will cone the rear tires. I'm thinking maybe I'm using too soft of springs so the car is rolling excessively. I'll be there this Sunday and hope to see you guys.

:.
There are several things that can cause your tires to cone.

If you combine too much toe in with little camber then your tires will cone out. If you reduce toe you can reduce coning, but very little toe means you have to find rear traction elsewhere.

So basically it all means that going excessive in any direction is plain bad for the car.

No camber will also cone out the tires.

So let's see what everyone else thinks of the following suggestion.

If you want less static camber (car just sitting flat on the table), then you need to use a shorter upper rear link. What that will do is increase your dinamic camber. That means the camber changes more as the car leans on that side. That compensates for excessive static camber. Do I make any sense?? Hppefully someone will correct me if I am wrong...

I noticed from your setup that you are using longer camber links at the rear per the roll center location you are using. I would suggest you try the outside positions on the tower so the camber link gets shorter.

Now, the change above will vary roll centers as well, and this is where it all gets complicated, because as you can see, one change detonates another.

So if I may share the following, these are my guidelines. The order in which I use them may not be the best solution but they do help me in the learning process.

- I would not use more than 3° of rear toe in. If the car needs more than that then I need to try something else. Excessive toe in causes excessive tire wear.

- Too much camber also means trouble. Again, I try to keep it less than 3.5°.

- I then move on to roll centers and camber links. The more parallel your camber link is with the lower A arm the lower the roll center will be during cornering. That in turn gives you more traction, as long as you do not go too far. Excess is bad here, too.

- If you use the inner camber holes in the tower then the camber links get longer. A longer camber link will reduce dinamic camber and if the car needs to roll to generate traction, then this will contribute to the coning in your tires. This is where the shorter link becomes an option.

- You could also change the car's track. The narrower the car's track is, the more the car will roll during cornering. If traction is high then you need to widen up the track.

Boy, I could go on forever. The learning process for me has been trying to balance out all of these factors and even more that you can play around with to find the perfect balance.

I am far far away from understanding perfectly what each setup option does for you, so in some cases if I loose it then it gets to be a little of trial and error. But if I get to that point, at least I bear in mind that there are certain limits of each setting that will keep the car drivable.

What separates the heroes from the rest of us is being able to identify quickly what to change in the car to make it fast and easy to drive.

Of course there is race car literature that will clear up all of these questions, if you are patient enough to read it carefully and even become involved with the math and physics. I am not that patient!

I sincerely hope that some of the loose ideas help you.

And if someone that knows about these things ever reads my posts, then I would be more than happy to read your replies and keep on learning!
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Old 09-08-2009, 02:03 AM   #768
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Understeery - caused by your ackerman setting I reckon
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Old 09-08-2009, 03:59 AM   #769
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Hey everyone just got home ,back to the sunshine state, all i can say is the car was a dream to drive.Fast in an out of the corners top speed amazing bottomend power insane.The track was off the hook with traction.Finish 6th in my main, but overall the car surprized alot racers, not bad at all with being the only G4RS 09 at this event.I want to thank Machinaria for the best support ever, Anna your the best,guys broke some parts, email Anna had the parts at my hotel next day.Now if thats not support.Thanks to James B for the monstermotor ,Pete Pepe for sweet paint job,Kevin of TwisterTires, David Larry for the ride ,Uriah Murnan thanks man.T-Roy thanks for the pitwork man.To everyone i saw at the Nats have a safe trip home.
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P.s will be posting setup.
Nice work bob, never easy with such a large field, and starting mid field and holding position.. way to go.

h
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Old 09-08-2009, 05:58 AM   #770
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Nice work bob, never easy with such a large field, and starting mid field and holding position.. way to go.

h
I know it man,but it did feel nice, again very happy with the car no complaints at all. The setup i used was base off of Dario,s setup with a few little changes here an there.Well our Forgass race series race 1 starts Sept19,an 20th in Miami (HomeStead track).Have to change the car up alittle but will keep you posted, agian thank everyone for all the feedback a tips keep them coming i now Teammagic is watching an seem to be very happy with all the positive feedback.
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Old 09-08-2009, 02:11 PM   #771
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I know it man,but it did feel nice, again very happy with the car no complaints at all. The setup i used was base off of Dario,s setup with a few little changes here an there.Well our Forgass race series race 1 starts Sept19,an 20th in Miami (HomeStead track).Have to change the car up alittle but will keep you posted, agian thank everyone for all the feedback a tips keep them coming i now Teammagic is watching an seem to be very happy with all the positive feedback.
Congratulations again, Bob!!

I was taking a look at your setup.

You used 2.5° of toe-out in the front of the car. That seems like too much to me.

There is something there that I am not seeing and I would like to ask you what it is. Why would you want to use that much toe out? Would not that cause the car to be twitchy on corner entry and then compromise mid-turn and out?

Wouldn't the car traction roll easily like that?

Thanks for sharing your settings!
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Old 09-08-2009, 02:54 PM   #772
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Originally Posted by gtrmx View Post
Congratulations again, Bob!!

I was taking a look at your setup.

You used 2.5° of toe-out in the front of the car. That seems like too much to me.

There is something there that I am not seeing and I would like to ask you what it is. Why would you want to use that much toe out? Would not that cause the car to be twitchy on corner entry and then compromise mid-turn and out?

Wouldn't the car traction roll easily like that?

Thanks for sharing your settings!
My driving style is very smooth,an yes if someone esle was to drive my car they would problem say the same ,i just set my adjust through my radio i,ve learned this from watching,Chris Tosolini ,Ralph Burch,an all the pros they drive with their fingertips so i practiced,an practice an more practice.
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Last edited by impalabob64; 09-08-2009 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 09-08-2009, 07:45 PM   #773
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My driving style is very smooth,an yes if someone esle was to drive my car they would problem say the same ,i just set my adjust through my radio i,ve learned this from watching,Chris Tosolini ,Ralph Burch,an all the pros they drive with their fingertips so i practiced,an practice an more practice.
I think I see what you are saying... I bet you probably use only about half way the total steering wheel travel also... right?

So not only would that make for a smooth driving style, but also, given the limited travel you do not have to twist your wrist all the way and therefore you can be very quick at switchbacks, right?

Thanks for your answer!
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Old 09-08-2009, 08:35 PM   #774
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I think I see what you are saying... I bet you probably use only about half way the total steering wheel travel also... right?

So not only would that make for a smooth driving style, but also, given the limited travel you do not have to twist your wrist all the way and therefore you can be very quick at switchbacks, right?

Thanks for your answer!
Yes, you are correct also the T- shirts i like nice job on them XXX for me.
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Old 09-08-2009, 11:16 PM   #775
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Yes, you are correct also the T- shirts i like nice job on them XXX for me.
That size will prove difficult to get to here... let me check with the store and see what they can do...

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Old 09-09-2009, 03:39 PM   #776
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That size will prove difficult to get to here... let me check with the store and see what they can do...

2xx will do if you can.
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Old 09-09-2009, 08:50 PM   #777
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So true about being smooth on transitions. I see alot of people at our local track that looks like they are about to rip the wheel right off the grip when turning. I've got my controls setup so its less turning on the radio, everybody drives different though. Smooth is fast.
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Old 09-10-2009, 06:17 PM   #778
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I think i will be taking a trip to the track where the 2010 worlds will be held.I believe they are having are big race in November hope to make that event.
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Old 09-10-2009, 06:21 PM   #779
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I think i will be taking a trip to the track where the 2010 worlds will be held.I believe they are having are big race in November hope to make that event.
Its a cool place to race. Nice seeing you again Bobby.
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Old 09-10-2009, 06:23 PM   #780
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Its a cool place to race. Nice seeing you again Bobby.
Nice to see you ,you still can wheel with the best Scott will i see you at the Winternats
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