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Old 12-23-2003, 04:55 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Taylor-Racing
No, I like that strategy too . . and not ONLY because I'm lazy.
For a day's racing, I like to have enough tyres of the same/similar diameter so that I can just rotate/change them and maintain the original set-up. This means the car should be relateively consistant from heat to heat with adjustments made for improvement purposes, not just to compensate for something.
That is why I do not want to race, its too much a hassle and costly. But I must say that it is really fun to race.
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Old 12-23-2003, 08:01 AM   #47
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Quote:
BTW, how would you compare the NS12S5 and the Max
It's like comparing the size of apple and cherry . Max all the way mate, it has insane power!
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Old 12-23-2003, 10:07 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Taylor-Racing
No, the variables that influence spring rate are:
Wire thickness.
Outside diameter of spring.
Number of active coils.
Thts what I meant......
I used the wrong example.

The second part was corrct. a spring of the same length but more coils is softer.
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Old 12-23-2003, 11:02 AM   #49
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I figured that when mugen packaged/labeled the springs that
the numbers 1.7,1.8,1.9,etc. were some measurement of the spring rate, like for example copper associated ntc3 springs are 25lb springs. I thought that the spring rate was the same even though the length of the spring is different, If I am correct that would mean that the spacing of the coils per given length would be different if all else were held equall.
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Old 12-23-2003, 11:13 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by sbmon
I figured that when mugen packaged/labeled the springs that
the numbers 1.7,1.8,1.9,etc. were some measurement of the spring rate, like for example copper associated ntc3 springs are 25lb springs. I thought that the spring rate was the same even though the length of the spring is different, If I am correct that would mean that the spacing of the coils per given length would be different if all else were held equall.
In a simple way yes ... that would be it. Still I find the way Mugen is rating springs is not practical as there are the new springs now. Spring diameter is not longer the way to rate the springs, you have to use the color codes only now. I will say using poundage is so much better, or shall we say KILOAGE for Japanese (metric).
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Old 12-23-2003, 01:32 PM   #51
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Then there are those of us who set droop as a static measurement off the chassis... Is your suspension moving so much that you are slamming the droop screws into the chassis? If they are, maybe you have too much weght transfer or you are way too little droop...
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Old 12-23-2003, 01:48 PM   #52
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so is my method of thinking correct
does anyone know for sure that the springs of the same color
are of the same spring rate even though the length is differnt
for front and rear springs
(and i am not talking about the new blue mtx3 springs)
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Old 12-23-2003, 11:47 PM   #53
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Technically, the answer to your way of thinking is yes BUT only if you're comparing springs from the same manufacturer.

I know HPI sells a silver front spring and a silver rear spring for the R40. The front silver spring has a 1.7mm wire wrapped around 6.5 times and has a overall length that is 3mm shorter than the rear spring. The rear silver spring has a 1.6mm wire wrapped around 6.5 times but since it is longer than the front, the space between the coils is greater (greater space = stiffer spring). So the difference between the two springs cancel out and thus they both have the same spring rate.

I think
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Old 12-24-2003, 02:54 AM   #54
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Guys,

The spacing of the coils is irrelevent.

Imagine it this way:
Take a 7 coil 1.7mm Rear spring and unwind it so you have a straight piece of wire. For the sake of the arguement, I'll say the wire length is 210mm.
Now take a 5 coil 1.7mm Front spring and unwind it likewise.
This piece will be 150mm long.

Now, try to bend each piece of wire and you will find that the longer piece is easier, yeah? . . . the long piece is "softer".

Springs in the normal coiled state work the same way - well nearly. When coiled, the springs experience torsional loads, but the principal is the same.

Now I'm not familiar with the Mugen method of colour coding springs, but for the Kyosho V-One-RR/Evo it goes something like this:

Front Gold: 2.5 coils x 1.7mm dia wire.
Rear Gold: 3.5 coils x 1.6mm dia wire.

So, if you want to do the math, you'll find the Front Gold spring is about 80% stiffer than the Rear Gold. This make it very difficult to choose springs from different manufacturers. As was said, it would be easier if all springs were rated in pounds per inch.

. . . or as Manticore might say, who cares what the colour is as long as it works.
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Old 12-24-2003, 04:30 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Taylor-Racing
Guys,

The spacing of the coils is irrelevent.

Imagine it this way:
Take a 7 coil 1.7mm Rear spring and unwind it so you have a straight piece of wire. For the sake of the arguement, I'll say the wire length is 210mm.
Now take a 5 coil 1.7mm Front spring and unwind it likewise.
This piece will be 150mm long.

Now, try to bend each piece of wire and you will find that the longer piece is easier, yeah? . . . the long piece is "softer".

Springs in the normal coiled state work the same way - well nearly. When coiled, the springs experience torsional loads, but the principal is the same.

Now I'm not familiar with the Mugen method of colour coding springs, but for the Kyosho V-One-RR/Evo it goes something like this:

Front Gold: 2.5 coils x 1.7mm dia wire.
Rear Gold: 3.5 coils x 1.6mm dia wire.

So, if you want to do the math, you'll find the Front Gold spring is about 80% stiffer than the Rear Gold. This make it very difficult to choose springs from different manufacturers. As was said, it would be easier if all springs were rated in pounds per inch.

. . . or as Manticore might say, who cares what the colour is as long as it works.
Taylor it does make a difference how far the coils are apart. Given that the diameter and material is the same. The 'distance' is a factor.

Hence a 10 coil 1.7mm spring of 8 cm long will have the same rating with a 5 coil 1.7 mm spring of 4 cm long. You cannot say that you unwrap it.

I agree that they should be rated in pounds or kilos.
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Old 12-24-2003, 05:48 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Sleeper
Technically, the answer to your way of thinking is yes BUT only if you're comparing springs from the same manufacturer.

I know HPI sells a silver front spring and a silver rear spring for the R40. The front silver spring has a 1.7mm wire wrapped around 6.5 times and has a overall length that is 3mm shorter than the rear spring. The rear silver spring has a 1.6mm wire wrapped around 6.5 times but since it is longer than the front, the space between the coils is greater (greater space = stiffer spring). So the difference between the two springs cancel out and thus they both have the same spring rate.

I think
So, you would ignore the difference in the wire diameter?
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Old 12-24-2003, 06:07 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by tIANcI
Taylor it does make a difference how far the coils are apart. Given that the diameter and material is the same. The 'distance' is a factor.
No, the wire dia. is the same but the length of wire used to make the spring is significantly different.

Quote:

Hence a 10 coil 1.7mm spring of 8 cm long will have the same rating with a 5 coil 1.7 mm spring of 4 cm long. You cannot say that you unwrap it.
I was suggesting you "imagine" the spring unwrapped (uncoiled, straight) so that you might be able to test the relative "bendiness" of the two pieces of straight wire.

Your example of 10 coil and 5 coil springs above, would see the 5 coil being twice as stiff as the 10 coil, yet the coil spacing is identical.
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Old 12-24-2003, 06:48 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Taylor-Racing
No, the wire dia. is the same but the length of wire used to make the spring is significantly different.


I was suggesting you "imagine" the spring unwrapped (uncoiled, straight) so that you might be able to test the relative "bendiness" of the two pieces of straight wire.

Your example of 10 coil and 5 coil springs above, would see the 5 coil being twice as stiff as the 10 coil, yet the coil spacing is identical.
I know what you asked me to imagine, understand that but you cannot unwrap it to use as comparison. The coils are what that make the spring constant despite the lenght of the spring.

In my example the 5 coil and 10 coils are the same rating, the 5 is NOT twice as hard. I think that is what I learnt in school. I hope I am right!!! Hahahaaa ...
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Old 12-24-2003, 07:11 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by tIANcI
I know what you asked me to imagine, understand that but you cannot unwrap it to use as comparison. The coils are what that make the spring constant despite the lenght of the spring.

In my example the 5 coil and 10 coils are the same rating, the 5 is NOT twice as hard. I think that is what I learnt in school. I hope I am right!!! Hahahaaa ...
Your schooling worries me a bit.

Have a butchers at THIS

. . . and THIS

. . . and one to download and play with.
N.B. Change the suffix to .xls and it should work.
Attached Files
File Type: txt coildemo.txt (19.0 KB, 76 views)
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Old 12-24-2003, 07:13 AM   #60
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. . . . in any other thread, I'd be collecting a bottle of Smirnof, about now.
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