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Old 01-03-2004, 11:44 PM   #2536
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Originally posted by S710_Nut
I will admit i have not driven the Serpent yet, but i love it so far and hopefully i have found a new home.

After all the "why would you want to get a serpent" "but the mugen is better" comments dude....
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Old 01-03-2004, 11:46 PM   #2537
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Originally posted by Motorman
Jack I believe the answer is yes. I dont own one yet (i'm in no hurry the season don't start here for 3 more months) but brad and tennessee have been complaining about the same thing, they tell me if they loosen the spring to much it bogs the motor, and if to tight it takes forever to come on. Still havent decided what to do about it yet. Their going to play with different clutch springs first

Don't worry a red disc will come along soon. they always do.
Dennis, I've been playing with this thing for 3 hours now (I'm a bit slow, ya know).
Working backwards I am now able to satisfy my self that Step 8.6 is incorrect.
In attempting to find what is absolutely true I have measured the various parts and how they work together.
The B measurement is fixed by the depth of the recess into the 1st gear pinion and the thickness of the thrust bearing and the bearing holder. Repeated measurement of this gives a value of B=1.03 mm
Now A=0.7mm+B or 1.73mm
This is close to what you get with the 0.5mm behind the collet, (1.83 mm, measured)
Now the calculated shim thickness is:
A-B-0.7 in mm = 0.1
IF YOU REDUCE THE VALUE OF "A" BY ADDING SHIMS BEHIND THE COLLET,TO TRY TO REACH THE GIVEN VALUE OF 1.3 MM, YOU WILL GET PROGRESSIVELY NEGATIVE VALUES FOR THE SHIM THICKNESS, BECAUSE "B" IS FIXED AT 1.03 AND THE DESIRED CLUTCH GAP IS FIXED AT 0.7MM.
I'm going to try 0.8mm of spring tension as in Step 8.3 and see how that works. By the way I notice that they picture a yellow brake shoe in the graphic, which might solve all our problems.

Last edited by clmbia45; 01-04-2004 at 01:25 AM.
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Old 01-03-2004, 11:53 PM   #2538
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Originally posted by B
How do you compare the fit and finish quality of the two brands?
I would echo s710_nut. I would also point out that the mtx3 suspension part wear out rapidly with use. You quickly develop slop in the A arms, etc.
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Old 01-04-2004, 12:10 AM   #2539
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Default STILL STARING AT THE 710 BOX

I AM STILL GAZING AT THE BOX,I FEEEL SO HAPPY...CHOCO
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Old 01-04-2004, 12:14 AM   #2540
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Post Re: STILL STARING AT THE 710 BOX

Quote:
Originally posted by kenchoco
I AM STILL GAZING AT THE BOX,I FEEEL SO HAPPY...CHOCO
Then start building it man!!!!
Mine is built for a few weeks now and i'll have to wait 2months for some dry weather
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Old 01-04-2004, 12:20 AM   #2541
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Default THANKS FOR THE

ENCOURAGEMENT...I WILL START NEXT WEEKEND.....U HAVE ANY PICS OF YOURS?
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Old 01-04-2004, 12:58 AM   #2542
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Now that I've thought about this for a while.

Jack somthing you might find usefull is to shim the bell instead of the flywheel to get the desired end clearence. This does a couple of things.
1 it keeps the bell from dragging the shoe in a hard right hander causing bog
2 it allows you to really see what the spring adjustment is really doing for you.

regardless you should shim under the inner bearing so the bell stays fixed with just a few thou end float, try to set it up at .020 to .030 bell to shoe clearance and see what it does for you.
You probably did this on your M car like we do. One last note is to remove the bell now that you have it broken in and scuff it with scotchbrite also the face of the disc.(remove the glaze) I helped barry baker do this to his centax one weekend and it cured all his ills.

Yellow Black

Hey jack when you get to the fort just ask for one, you can bet the snake boys will have some

my 2 cents
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Old 01-04-2004, 01:31 AM   #2543
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Quote:
Originally posted by Motorman
Now that I've thought about this for a while.

Jack somthing you might find usefull is to shim the bell instead of the flywheel to get the desired end clearence. This does a couple of things.
1 it keeps the bell from dragging the shoe in a hard right hander causing bog
2 it allows you to really see what the spring adjustment is really doing for you.

regardless you should shim under the inner bearing so the bell stays fixed with just a few thou end float, try to set it up at .020 to .030 bell to shoe clearance and see what it does for you.
You probably did this on your M car like we do. One last note is to remove the bell now that you have it broken in and scuff it with scotchbrite also the face of the disc.(remove the glaze) I helped barry baker do this to his centax one weekend and it cured all his ills.

Yellow Black

Hey jack when you get to the fort just ask for one, you can bet the snake boys will have some

my 2 cents
Like Santa, I'm KEEPING A LIST AND CHECKING IT TWICE!!!
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Old 01-04-2004, 01:54 AM   #2544
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Quote:
Originally posted by clmbia45
Dennis, I've been playing with this thing for 3 hours now (I'm a bit slow, ya know).
Working backwards I am now able to satisfy my self that Step 8.6 is incorrect.
In attempting to find what is absolutely true I have measured the various parts and how they work together.
The B measurement is fixed by the depth of the recess into the 1st gear pinion and the thickness of the thrust bearing and the bearing holder. Repeated measurement of this gives a value of B=1.03 mm
Now A=0.7mm+B or 1.73mm
This is close to what you get with the 0.5mm behind the collet, (1.83 mm, measured)
Now the calculated shim thickness is:
A-B-0.7 in mm = 0.1
IF YOU REDUCE THE VALUE OF "A" BY ADDING SHIMS BEHIND THE COLLET,TO TRY TO REACH THE GIVEN VALUE OF 1.3 MM, YOU WILL GET PROGRESSIVELY NEGATIVE VALUES FOR THE SHIM THICKNESS, BECAUSE "B" IS FIXED AT 1.03 AND THE DESIRED CLUTCH GAP IS FIXED AT 0.7MM.
I'm going to try 0.8mm of spring tension as in Step 8.3 and see how that works. By the way I notice that they picture a yellow brake shoe in the graphic, which might solve all our problems.

The figures on page 28 for A & B of the manual are only a guide not to be taken into cosideration.

1) First of all make sure that the gears on the clutchbell are tight enough. Assembell and dissasemble these a few times. Clean between each assembly.

2) Place only the 0.5mm shim behind the ""Brass cone"". Make sure you use the Brass one and not any other.

3) Assemble the clutch as described and record your A & B measurements, as per manual page 28.

4) Now the correct gap between the clutch shoe and the bell is 0.7mm. If its closer then your motor will bog down, and if too much then the clutch will have a delayed action and your clutch shoe wont last long as its just grabbing and may even slip too much. This is very important in the Centax Clutch. Get this wrong and you might as well use a electric car.

5) With these 2 measurements take the difference A - B = Clutch Gap 0f 0.7mm.

6) Find the right shims that will give you 0.7mm difference and then place them per diagram.

7) Say you measured 1mm for B and 3mm for A. then the difference will be 2mm. Now there is a total gap of 2mm. You must reduce this to 0.7mm for the right amount of clearance. So you must add 1.3mm of shims to achieve this.

8) Now add the smallest shims so that you minimise the endplay leave about 0.2mm gap.

9) You should always be able to spin the clutchbell when the motor is held verticaly with the clutch facing up or in the down position. If the clutch doesnt spin for at leat 5 seconds recheck your adjustments. Do this without any lubrication on the thrustbearing. Then when your happy lubricate the thrustbearing.


Set the spring collar as per manual. Try this. If it is still a little slugish as I doubt it will be then turn it clockwise 1/4 of a turn at a time and try it till the setting suits you.

You can do this without taking the motor out with a allen key if you didnt know. Just place the key in one of the holes on the clutch bell, locate the spring collar recess and turn.

Cheers Bill
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Old 01-04-2004, 03:21 AM   #2545
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The manual is out on the suggested measurements though. I set mine up exactly as the manual said to and the clutch engages way too late.

Question on clutch shoes... What exactly is the diff between the black and the yellow? I have only ever used the yellow that came standard in the 835.
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Old 01-04-2004, 03:28 AM   #2546
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Quote:
Originally posted by sparksy
The manual is out on the suggested measurements though. I set mine up exactly as the manual said to and the clutch engages way too late.

Question on clutch shoes... What exactly is the diff between the black and the yellow? I have only ever used the yellow that came standard in the 835.
Yes the 1mm form the end of the flywheel fixing nut is to much to preload and the clutch engauges to late. 0 to .25 is more like it. when you set the clutch up for the .7mm gap I found it best to remove the nut and bearings as it will stop the bell from touching the shoe.
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Old 01-04-2004, 03:40 AM   #2547
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The yellow shoe is made of softer material, and is used for high bite tracks so that when the clutch engages it hammers in and there is no slip. As for the black shoe its a little harder and is designed to slip a little for low bite tracks. They dont last as long so look for burn marks on the face of the shoe.

Cheers Bill
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Old 01-04-2004, 03:44 AM   #2548
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Quote:
Originally posted by clmbia45
Dennis, I've been playing with this thing for 3 hours now (I'm a bit slow, ya know).
Working backwards I am now able to satisfy my self that Step 8.6 is incorrect.
In attempting to find what is absolutely true I have measured the various parts and how they work together.
The B measurement is fixed by the depth of the recess into the 1st gear pinion and the thickness of the thrust bearing and the bearing holder. Repeated measurement of this gives a value of B=1.03 mm
Now A=0.7mm+B or 1.73mm
This is close to what you get with the 0.5mm behind the collet, (1.83 mm, measured)
Now the calculated shim thickness is:
A-B-0.7 in mm = 0.1
IF YOU REDUCE THE VALUE OF "A" BY ADDING SHIMS BEHIND THE COLLET,TO TRY TO REACH THE GIVEN VALUE OF 1.3 MM, YOU WILL GET PROGRESSIVELY NEGATIVE VALUES FOR THE SHIM THICKNESS, BECAUSE "B" IS FIXED AT 1.03 AND THE DESIRED CLUTCH GAP IS FIXED AT 0.7MM.
I'm going to try 0.8mm of spring tension as in Step 8.3 and see how that works. By the way I notice that they picture a yellow brake shoe in the graphic, which might solve all our problems.
The B measurement is not fixed. It's defined by as you say:"the depth of the recess into the 1st gear pinion and the thickness of the thrust bearing and the bearing holder" AND the amount of shims between the steel holder and the thrust bearing!

This is where you set clutch gap on the Centax3 (as it was on the centax2).

After you set the gap you may notice that with bearings etc. installed you can still push the bell onto the clutch shoe. This is where the small shims come in. You put the between the clutch nut and the inner bearing. Make sure you have a little end play (about 0.2mm should be ok).
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Old 01-04-2004, 03:46 AM   #2549
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Thanks Bill...

Like I said... I've only ever used the yellow one. It came stock in my 835, and its the only serpent I've owned before the 710. Might have to order another one.
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Old 01-04-2004, 03:56 AM   #2550
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Hmm i never thought the way i did is the way the expert recommended...im impressed

thanks guys...I just love snake guys. You all informative & helpful. Thanks to D also for influencing, "biting" me 2 change car...
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