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Old 08-12-2005, 11:30 AM   #22036
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Originally Posted by Julius
@ Jag, It is always a trade off. A good rear can be overpowered by too much front bite. If you have traction roll problems you'll need to get more rear or less front. Using 40's might be all you need to do as it just takes a slight amount of initial bite away from the front.
Anyhow more rear grip will always mean less steering in a way. Try the front diff and sway bar adjustments they are easy to make while running and you immediately feel the change and see if you like it.

@cyclops, normally lighter rear oil will not give more forward on power traction in the rear. More often stiffer damping will give better results.
I will slap some 40's on there and give it a go. I'll will also try tightening the front diff until It gets bad so I know how it feels.

How does the front sway bar effect the car?

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Old 08-12-2005, 12:00 PM   #22037
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Originally Posted by InitialD
Jag, some suggestions here. If your track is flat, I would try using very little droop in the rear, say 8 or 9. Maybe 1 in the front. What tire diameters are you using? Too much rear droop makes for too much weight transfer to the front. This would cause too much steering and loss of stability and secondly the car becomes lazy.

Ride height maybe 5 in front and 6 in the rear. I like the rear to be higher than the front because for one thing, the rear tires wear faster. Secondly, when you're on power, the rear dives under acceleration.

As for camber, make the fronts wear flat while for the rear, use as much camber to make the rear tires slightly cone from the inside to outside (slightly smaller diameter in the inside). Left and right camber need not necessary be the same depending on the track layout.

Probably lessen the front toe out to 1 or 0.5. Mid corner speed increases and initial steering into corners will also lessen. Depending on your driving style, it may be easier to drive this way to make the car less sensitive to steering input. If you're not getting enough ON power steering, lessen the rear toe in. 3 is a lot I think. If you're using this much to tame the rear, I suggest you look somewhere else to get the balance back to the rear of the car. Too much straight line speed is scrubbed off also with a lot of rear toe in.

For the front diffs, I would generally try to get the front HARDER than the rear and then work my way from there. I do this mostly for stability of the car when powering out of the corners. Tightening the rear diff harder than front diff will cause the car to twitch and the rear swapping ends when you power out of corners. If I don't get enough steering because the front diff is harder than the rear, I'll get steering back by hardening my rear sway bar till I find the right balance. I go as much as taking off the front sway bars to get steering back. I use the optional harder 2.5mm sway bar and mount it inside the the rear bottom arms (stock setting is mounting it on the outer side).

For shocks, you may want to try 40wt Serpent oil for more responsive car. Are you using 1.2mm hole pistons or just the 1.0mm ones?

The roll centers I use on my 710 are the same as yours except that I use the highest front roll center (no shims underneath). I like how the car reacts and responds from left to right with a higher roll center in the front.
I was running 60mm front and 60.5mm rear (when I started). I didn't have a chance to check them since. It will be interesting to see how much they wore. The track is generally flat/smooth but there are a few spots where there are small bumps. I thought that by increasing the droop, I could keep the tires on the track. Wrong?

I will try raising the ride height in the rear... that's easy to do.

I think I have enough on power steering. You think 3 degrees is a lot of toe for the rear? Last time at Ft Meyers, Paolo told me to start with 4 and decrease it as the traction comes up. I think he was running 2.5 in the main. I agree that you loose forward speed but I thought less rear toe in makes the car more difficult to drive?

I think I have the diff's wrong. I have the rear quite a bit tighter than the front. Most of my rear traction problem is on-power coming out of corners. Maybe I'm just squeezing the trigger to hard . If I tighten the front that should help, right? If tightening the front diff hurts the steering then go with the stiffer rear sway bar to get the steering back?

I'm using the stock pistons. I am not familiar with the hole diameter choices. Will thicker oil hurt the car in the bumpy areas?

Raise the front roll center??? hmmmm.

Sorry for all the questions. I just want to make sure I understand what you are telling me.

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Old 08-12-2005, 12:04 PM   #22038
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InitialD
Yes, I do this also. I find the harder the rear sway bar setting, the better side bite I get. Of course up to a certain setting and you don't get that advantage anymore. So much so I'd just stick to the same rear sway bar setting for more front bite and just adjust the front diff to get more or less steering.
That's what I'm going to do.

With all this information I will have the car setup in no time

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Old 08-12-2005, 03:36 PM   #22039
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jag
I will slap some 40's on there and give it a go. I'll will also try tightening the front diff until It gets bad so I know how it feels.

How does the front sway bar effect the car?

Thanks,
jag
Harder bar less front grip. Softer bar more front grip.
If rear on throttle grip is your problem diff settings are the thing to look at first. You'll be amazed by how much you can change the balance. It is very easy too as you can change the setting so easily during practice sessions. It is one reason why I like the ball diff over an oil diff.
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Old 08-12-2005, 05:23 PM   #22040
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jag
I think I have enough on power steering. You think 3 degrees is a lot of toe for the rear? Last time at Ft Meyers, Paolo told me to start with 4 and decrease it as the traction comes up. I think he was running 2.5 in the main. I agree that you loose forward speed but I thought less rear toe in makes the car more difficult to drive?
When i drove the 705 (For a short time, in the begining...) i used to use way-less toe, about 1 deg of at max 2 deg... With the 710 i notice that toe in realy is handy to get out of the corners easy, you do lose speed, so i think poalo's tip on decreasing it slowly when there's more grip is really good....
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Old 08-12-2005, 05:35 PM   #22041
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Originally Posted by Julius
Harder bar less front grip. Softer bar more front grip.
If rear on throttle grip is your problem diff settings are the thing to look at first. You'll be amazed by how much you can change the balance. It is very easy too as you can change the setting so easily during practice sessions. It is one reason why I like the ball diff over an oil diff.
I like the ball diff also. Changing the fluid in a gear diff is a pain.

I always thought the front sway bar effected the rear and the rear sway bar effected the front. Is that not true?

Have you ever raced at Ft. Meyers?

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Old 08-12-2005, 06:21 PM   #22042
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I've been running the front diff quite abit tighter then the rear, the rear is actually quite loose and the car is so smooth to drive.

I don't like running heaps of toe, running 2 degrees at the moment.

I tried the 3mm rear sway bar last time I ran to get more turn in at the end of the straight, it helped but was traction rolling on a particular corner, the 2.5mm bar was better for the traction rolling, but still need more turn in on power. I willl be trying the standard bar if it ever stops raining on a race day!!
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Old 08-13-2005, 01:59 AM   #22043
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jag
I always thought the front sway bar effected the rear and the rear sway bar effected the front. Is that not true?

that's a little true, more front sway bare will give some stability and so the rear will be a little more stable... but, it will also give more bite into a corner but less grip in a corner, that's all just the front sway bar....

Actually every setting you change, no mather where on the car (front or rear) has impact on the other end...
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Old 08-14-2005, 01:50 AM   #22044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg M
I tried the 3mm rear sway bar last time I ran to get more turn in at the end of the straight, it helped but was traction rolling on a particular corner, the 2.5mm bar was better for the traction rolling, but still need more turn in on power. I willl be trying the standard bar if it ever stops raining on a race day!!
What's your front roll center, Greg? Have you tried taking out and not using the front sway bar and leave the rear on? Probably stiffening the rear shock using a harder rear spring or one or two holes up on the rear shock tower would help your on power steering. I would try the latter first.
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Old 08-14-2005, 01:57 AM   #22045
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Originally Posted by jag
I always thought the front sway bar effected the rear and the rear sway bar effected the front. Is that not true?
Yes. I think it goes like this... When you take away front grip and prevent the front end from rolling by using a hard front sway bar, you ultimately give the the rear more grip. That combination gives less steering. Same explanation for the rear sway bar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jag
Have you ever raced at Ft. Meyers?
Oh yes ! I believe he raced there some time ago but that should give you an indication about his age. I believe if you search the sgrid forum, you would find a posting from Julius on how to drive around the Ft Myers track. I think he posted it here too but I can't seem to find it.
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Old 08-14-2005, 02:09 AM   #22046
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Roll centre is standard in front, I haven't removed the front sway bar. I'll have a play with your suggestions next weekend
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Old 08-14-2005, 03:08 AM   #22047
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Default Unstable rear-end without front sway bar?

Don't you guys have a problem with the rear being tricky when removing the front sway bar? Can this unstability be solved by using thinker shock oil or less holes?
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Old 08-14-2005, 04:06 AM   #22048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InitialD
... I believe if you search the sgrid forum, you would find a posting from Julius on how to drive around the Ft Myers track. I think he posted it here too but I can't seem to find it.
And now he will race at the European Championships, possibly his last race for a long while. Seeing that he is not racing full time and still goes ballistically fast, he'll no doubt kick a few a$$e$ including those of prophets.
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Old 08-14-2005, 04:09 AM   #22049
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _cyclops_
Don't you guys have a problem with the rear being tricky when removing the front sway bar? Can this unstability be solved by using thinker shock oil or less holes?
I do find the car a little twitchy when not using the front sway bar so I either leave it on flat and work elsewhere on the car for what I need or I will reduce the number of holes in the front shocks.
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Old 08-14-2005, 12:10 PM   #22050
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Originally Posted by Sow&Steady
And now he will race at the European Championships, possibly his last race for a long while. Seeing that he is not racing full time and still goes ballistically fast, he'll no doubt kick a few a$$e$ including those of prophets.
Good luck to you and Julius in the EU. Yes, I see that most of the time when he's racing, he has the RING. Must be something else. Perhaps the vodka shots.
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