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Old 12-08-2003, 02:48 AM   #1531
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Quote:
Originally posted by lawndoggie
Where do you usually go?? I think there are only 3 tracks in HK.
PYC is the smallest, Kai Tak is not that much bigger, I haven't been to ACO, I heard is huge! Though I am worried about the 1/8 hitting me.. and my car!
I usually go to ACO and sometime at PYC. Don't afraid the 1/8, most of the drivers at ACO are very gentlemen and they will try their every effort to prevent to hit others or damage to their cars. Moreover, the track is wide enough especially at corners for you to give way to faster cars. You will find your car and body last longer when playing in ACO!
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Old 12-08-2003, 06:34 AM   #1532
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Quote:
Originally posted by InitialD
Wouldn't using a larger rear tire than front (with stock internal pulleys) make the on power push problem worse? I think on power push would be eliminated if larger FRONT tires (or overdrive) was used instead. Just my 2 cents.
When you run a one way in the front:

If you use larger rear tires you will get more on power steering. This comes from the fact that the stabilising effect of the front gets less (the rear will want to overtake the front. Off throttle there is hardly any difference to running a 1:1 ratio.

With smaller fronts the car will be more easy on throttle. It will follow the direction the front wheels point to. But off throttle you will get oversteer because the front will slow down more than the rear, so going into corners you will notice the car tends to oversteer.

If you run a diff in the front:
If you use larger rear tires you will get more on power steering. Off throttle you will get less than with a 1:1 ratio.

With smaller fronts the effect is similar when using a diff or a one-way.
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Old 12-08-2003, 08:12 AM   #1533
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Julius, thanks for the correction. I guess the explanation you gave referred to the stock internal pulleys where you run 1:1 overdrive...

Does your explanation hold true when you run a split and use smaller front tires with regards to using a one way front or when you use diffs?
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Old 12-08-2003, 02:38 PM   #1534
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Quote:
Originally posted by InitialD
Julius, thanks for the correction. I guess the explanation you gave referred to the stock internal pulleys where you run 1:1 overdrive...

Does your explanation hold true when you run a split and use smaller front tires with regards to using a one way front or when you use diffs?
It is all about the actual ratio between front and rear. If you use different pulleys to make the ratio between the front and rear axle different than 1:1 you accomplish the same as using differnt tire sizes with 1:1 pulleys.

But if using different pulleys and a split in tire size you may end up with 1:1 in the end. In this case a difference in handling is due to the change in suspension arm position and differnt characteristicts of the tire when it is made smaller.

For instance on the 705 I used a 23 pulley on the middle axle. When using same diameter tires you'd create an overdrive. But I used a 2.5mm smaller front diameter so the ratio was again 1:1. The car was a bit better on some tracks this way because to get the same ride height you'd change the suspension position and that makes the roll center change a little.

The effects of a split (wether due to ratio or pulleys) is differs when using a one way or a diff. This is because the one way allows the front wheels to run faster but not slower than the rears. With a diff the wheel speed is always the same and thus the effects are a little different.
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Old 12-08-2003, 04:25 PM   #1535
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Ok sorry last question- How hard is it to get parts for serpents? None of the local shops carry serpent so everything would have to be ordered. I never cared for serpents design(even thou they always have been very good) but after looking at the assembly diagrams at mytsn.com I like the 710. Serpent really has done a great job.Hopefully it will awesome on track.
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Old 12-08-2003, 06:23 PM   #1536
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getting parts shipped to you isn't too bad. A few days to a week depending on how far away the shop is that you are ordering from. I'm not really sure that going Serpent would be the best path for you to take. It's always better to stick with a MFG that you can get parts for locally.

Don't think that I don't like serpent, I have a 705 and think its great. It's just that not being able to find parts locally would be a royal pain.
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Old 12-08-2003, 06:33 PM   #1537
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Good point- Usually I order a car and then order every part for it. Generally I never need to get a part from the hobby store unless its to restock my supply. I am looking forward to seeing how 710 works.
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Old 12-08-2003, 07:45 PM   #1538
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i have been in the habit for a while now to order two kits.. cheapest way to have all parts on hand....
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Old 12-09-2003, 02:45 AM   #1539
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Julius: I assume the cars are ready to ship shortly with the-border hobbies shipping there tomorrow?

It's getting closer....

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Old 12-09-2003, 09:30 AM   #1540
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Julius, I guess the questions that I'm going to ask is somewhat related to the answers you posted above.

When you use different tire diameters (smaller or bigger), you alter and compensate the droop accordingly (increase or decrease) right? So if you run a split (meaning with smaller front tires and different internal pulleys to create a 1:1 overdrive), does this mean you need to compensate and increase front droop as well? Me thinks using smaller front tires decreases the front droop and therefore going by your earlier explanation, on power steering decreases due to front tire lifting and lack ground contact in the front.

Also, in a long main where the rear (and also front) tires on the car wear, do you ask your pitman to roughly increase rear (or front) droop to compensate for the tire wear so that the car's handling can remain close to constant? I know that pitmans usually meddle with the carb needles but I have personally not heard of pitmans meddling with droop. Thanks.
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Old 12-09-2003, 10:24 AM   #1541
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initial D sometimes reducing droop will help in overall steering.
adding droop vs reducing droop to add steering is not always
the case so in some situations you can get a more consistent
turn circle with reduced droop because your not unloading the
inside wheel too much. with the pit situation I think that depends
on how comfortable you are with your pitmans abilities.
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Old 12-09-2003, 11:00 AM   #1542
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Quote:
Originally posted by jwf_frani
initial D sometimes reducing droop will help in overall steering.
adding droop vs reducing droop to add steering is not always
the case so in some situations you can get a more consistent
turn circle with reduced droop because your not unloading the
inside wheel too much. with the pit situation I think that depends
on how comfortable you are with your pitmans abilities.
well said !
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Old 12-09-2003, 11:18 AM   #1543
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Quote:
Originally posted by InitialD
Julius, thanks for the correction. I guess the explanation you gave referred to the stock internal pulleys where you run 1:1 overdrive...

Does your explanation hold true when you run a split and use smaller front tires with regards to using a one way front or when you use diffs?
That really explains your improvement on your driving skills.
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Old 12-09-2003, 11:20 AM   #1544
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Quote:
Originally posted by InitialD
Julius, I guess the questions that I'm going to ask is somewhat related to the answers you posted above.

When you use different tire diameters (smaller or bigger), you alter and compensate the droop accordingly (increase or decrease) right? So if you run a split (meaning with smaller front tires and different internal pulleys to create a 1:1 overdrive), does this mean you need to compensate and increase front droop as well? Me thinks using smaller front tires decreases the front droop and therefore going by your earlier explanation, on power steering decreases due to front tire lifting and lack ground contact in the front.

Also, in a long main where the rear (and also front) tires on the car wear, do you ask your pitman to roughly increase rear (or front) droop to compensate for the tire wear so that the car's handling can remain close to constant? I know that pitmans usually meddle with the carb needles but I have personally not heard of pitmans meddling with droop. Thanks.
A word of age old advise...
maybe just maybe you should just shut up and drive more then be stupid.!
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Old 12-09-2003, 02:49 PM   #1545
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Quote:
Originally posted by InitialD
Julius, I guess the questions that I'm going to ask is somewhat related to the answers you posted above.

When you use different tire diameters (smaller or bigger), you alter and compensate the droop accordingly (increase or decrease) right? So if you run a split (meaning with smaller front tires and different internal pulleys to create a 1:1 overdrive), does this mean you need to compensate and increase front droop as well? Me thinks using smaller front tires decreases the front droop and therefore going by your earlier explanation, on power steering decreases due to front tire lifting and lack ground contact in the front.

Also, in a long main where the rear (and also front) tires on the car wear, do you ask your pitman to roughly increase rear (or front) droop to compensate for the tire wear so that the car's handling can remain close to constant? I know that pitmans usually meddle with the carb needles but I have personally not heard of pitmans meddling with droop. Thanks.

Let's say you wish to compare handling between 1:1 pulleys and same size tires and a split in tire size with different pulleys so the ratio is still 1:1....

You will need to set the preload on the springs so you get the same ride height. But now the suspension is closer to the stops, so you must increase droop to get the same trave. Also you'll need to reset camber as it too will change. Only this way will there be a true comparison.

If you don't compensate the droop you will most likely get a little less steering on throttle due to the decrease in downward travel.


As to your question of changing droop during a final. No way! The time lost in the pits......

To prepare for the tire wear in a final you will have to compromise. You will most likely run bigger tires to start (compared to qualifying) and you will end smaller. So you'll need to find a ride height high enough as to still have sufficient ground clearance at the end. If that means a change from what you run in the qualifiers you'd need to change droop settings too, so the handling stays more or less the same. In the beginning the car will handle different too due to the increased ground clearance and the larger tires. You'll just have to live with that...
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