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Old 04-26-2008, 10:20 AM   #1
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Default Can the SPEC concept work?

We are having a discussion about the 200mm nitro touring car class in another thread and the subject of spec motors came up. I had been involved in some spec 1:1 stuff a few years ago and it can be a good thing.
We discussed spec tires as one of the solutions as you can only hook up so much horsepower with a harder compound tire.
Spec motor...maybe, but harder to police that?
Motor claim....there are ways around that with the buddy system so that probably would not work.
I am sure some of you will dislike the idea of spec...but for the sake of the hobby, maybe this should be looked at as a way to decrease cost and increase participation.
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Old 04-26-2008, 10:51 AM   #2
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Spec classes usually increase the cost of racing. Whenever restrictions are placed on power/traction etc. More effort is put forth to go fast within the 'letter' of the law. This can mean greater outlay of cash (more engines, trying to find that one that outshines the rest. More tires with different inserts, usually ending up with one that works very well but wears fast). It can work, but most efforts to reduce racing costs backfire. I'm not saying it isn't worth trying, but it will be a challenge to come up with regs that work and are enforceable.
I think the BEST solution is for us all to simply increase our personal incomes by about 400%.
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Old 04-26-2008, 11:44 AM   #3
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maybe the government should subsidize our hobbies...

I know what you are saying about increasing cost if you implement a spec formula but it still should have some validity? Maybe this should just be done in novice classes to help keep the new guy from getting discouraged with equipment costs and keeping up with the Jones'
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Old 04-26-2008, 11:47 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by genesisG4 View Post
maybe the government should subsidize our hobbies...

I know what you are saying about increasing cost if you implement a spec formula but it still should have some validity? Maybe this should just be done in novice classes to help keep the new guy from getting discouraged with equipment costs and keeping up with the Jones'
I think we all like that idea!
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Old 04-26-2008, 12:54 PM   #5
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I think the answer to you question of can a spec class work is yes, but for some reason it never does. There have been several attempts and all have failed miserably.

There already are specs for 200mm, the first being you're limited to a 200mm wide car (the 220mm concept is stupid). The engine can only be .12 cu.in., and can only have 3 ports. Even with these restrictions the cars are ballistic.

Nitro has an advantage over electric because generally these cars have more power than the average driver can handle. Yea, the really top notch drivers can take advantage of a better engine, but the rest of us have to struggle with engine tuning, clutch adjustments, and car set up. An overpowered bad handling car teaches you more about driving than an oversized slot car.
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Old 04-27-2008, 09:00 AM   #6
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The Kyosho IGT Spec Class is working fine.

There are some that want it to fail for political reasons but with today's changing economy, it's a concept that is growing every day.
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Old 04-27-2008, 10:00 AM   #7
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What possible political reason would there be for the IGT class to fail?

The one fatal flaw with the Kyosho IGT class is you have to run a Kyosho IGT. You can't run any other car. It is a good class ( I have one) and can serve as an entry into nitro on road but it's not the next great thing in RC.
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Old 04-27-2008, 12:14 PM   #8
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I very well remember my days of spec electric racing a few years ago.

The reality was absolutely contradictory to the concept of spec racing.

The effort to gain an edge in spec racing is incredible, and don#t believe for a second that not almost every racer will try to get the edge over the competition.

People bought 10 packs of battery packs to find one or two good ones. Same with the motors and everybody had a dyno to get the last milliwatt out of them.

Next thing is tires. If the amount of tires is not set, people will run a new set every heat.

Last but not least,motors were teched and un-wound after almost every race day and a cheater was caught almost every weekend.

For me, spec TC racing cost eventually more money than regular stock or modified racing.

if a spec-class is supposed to work, it can only be with handout motors and tires, even in nitro racing.
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Old 04-27-2008, 12:25 PM   #9
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Peeps will be leaning on thier motor even harder to get that mythical edge..lol
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Old 04-27-2008, 03:16 PM   #10
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Spec classes sound good but guys will always look for ways to cheat, they can't rely on their driving skill to win so they turn to the wallet and buy the biggest and best hp to try and win and spend more on replacement parts cause they can't handle that new power plant sounds good on paper or screen but it will take too much time to check the legalaty of everyones cars. And I also agree 220 class is one of the stupidest classes to try and make.
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Old 04-27-2008, 07:33 PM   #11
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Please forgive my rude attitude toward this....The spec class for nitro would work very well, if and only if you had a spec "buyin." But for some reason, NOBODY is interested...

Would you pay $120 engine "buy in" That means you would spend $120 for an engine and that would be the cost for the whole series unless you burnt it up. OS makes a rear exhuast .12 engine that works very well, and it cost $120.00 (maybe OS would cut a deal to move some of these). All engines are handed out at the start of the race day by "draw" and then handed in at the end of the day...if a two day event (or more), that engine will be given back to the same person to save the time of redoing the clutch....then engines will be ( inspected and sealed after each race) One person would be responsable for the engines to clean and oil after each race, if an engine has been tampered with, the driver would loose his or her points for that race. At the next race, a new engine draw

......a fuel sponsor would provide fuel for a minimal fee so everybody uses the same fuel % and brand... Let everybody run tires of thier choise for track conditions. From thier, everything is up to the driver and mechanic. at the end of the season, the engines are handed out to the drivers. If the driver chooses to run again the next series, the engine is put back into the "box" and his cost is nothing for the next series. The engines can be replaced after 2 or 3 series and the replacement cost is offset with price of the engines being sold off. In theory, you could run 6 series for under $200.

For those who like to LEAN on it too much, if you burn it up, you pay a replacement cost for the piston/liner. Entry fees cover the cost of replacing a bearing if it goes bad.

It would be totaly up to the mechanic for car setup/clutch/gearing/tires.......the kicker is the engine, everybody has the same engine and fuel..
Well, enough of that,.... I bought one of the OS TG.12 engines and it was actualy a good engine. A rear exhaust engine I ran on my Xray NT1. I let my 4 year old drive my car with that engine on it.... (idea: WHAT A WAY TO GET KIDS INTO RUNNING NITRO AT A LOW COST)

Almost forgot, NO CERAMIC BEARINGS/NO HOP-UPS/everbody uses the same type body/put a cost limit on servo's...ect.ect realy easy to do!
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Old 04-27-2008, 08:28 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfoolz View Post
Please forgive my rude attitude toward this....The spec class for nitro would work very well, if and only if you had a spec "buyin." But for some reason, NOBODY is interested...

Would you pay $120 engine "buy in" That means you would spend $120 for an engine and that would be the cost for the whole series unless you burnt it up. OS makes a rear exhuast .12 engine that works very well, and it cost $120.00 (maybe OS would cut a deal to move some of these). All engines are handed out at the start of the race day by "draw" and then handed in at the end of the day...if a two day event (or more), that engine will be given back to the same person to save the time of redoing the clutch....then engines will be ( inspected and sealed after each race) One person would be responsable for the engines to clean and oil after each race, if an engine has been tampered with, the driver would loose his or her points for that race. At the next race, a new engine draw

......a fuel sponsor would provide fuel for a minimal fee so everybody uses the same fuel % and brand... Let everybody run tires of thier choise for track conditions. From thier, everything is up to the driver and mechanic. at the end of the season, the engines are handed out to the drivers. If the driver chooses to run again the next series, the engine is put back into the "box" and his cost is nothing for the next series. The engines can be replaced after 2 or 3 series and the replacement cost is offset with price of the engines being sold off. In theory, you could run 6 series for under $200.

For those who like to LEAN on it too much, if you burn it up, you pay a replacement cost for the piston/liner. Entry fees cover the cost of replacing a bearing if it goes bad.

It would be totaly up to the mechanic for car setup/clutch/gearing/tires.......the kicker is the engine, everybody has the same engine and fuel..
Well, enough of that,.... I bought one of the OS TG.12 engines and it was actualy a good engine. A rear exhaust engine I ran on my Xray NT1. I let my 4 year old drive my car with that engine on it.... (idea: WHAT A WAY TO GET KIDS INTO RUNNING NITRO AT A LOW COST)

Almost forgot, NO CERAMIC BEARINGS/NO HOP-UPS/everbody uses the same type body/put a cost limit on servo's...ect.ect realy easy to do!
I am sure we will hear why this will not work...but it sounds logical to me. I know the spec formula is not without its problems, but with a little thought I see no reason a workable formula could not be implemented. For sure it will take more effort on the part of the club and tech staff to make it work.
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Old 04-28-2008, 12:32 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genesisG4 View Post
I am sure we will hear why this will not work...but it sounds logical to me. I know the spec formula is not without its problems, but with a little thought I see no reason a workable formula could not be implemented. For sure it will take more effort on the part of the club and tech staff to make it work.
This concept could work, BUT only, when everybody always races at the same track.

As soon as you start going to other tracks, the equipment (engines / fuel) would have to travel too.......

IMHO, you are putting too much weight on engine power and tuning stuff like ceramic bearings. Those things don't make you win.

Give a pro driver you very own car to drive on your home track and watch in awe how he's going to be a second faster than you within the frist 5 laps.

B.Baker did this to me two times and it sharpened my focus on what really counts. Driving, driving, setup and tires....

As I said, my humble opinion!
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Old 04-28-2008, 04:46 AM   #14
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Within Europe in the past the 200mm engine was specced a lot like the bore in the crankshaft and the heights of all the ports. even then the modifiers do know there is a lot to do with the timing of the crankshaft or as we discussed in another modify topic you can alter porttimings by shaping the piston.

That is where it all started in the past with the 235mm class where for 95% the engines were Serpent. No grinding was alowed but the Serpent teamdrivers had twice the power as the normal comercial engine which did indicate the teamdrivers had other spec engines.
With the 200mm JP, MAX and all other topbrands came with a "tuned within EFRA specs" engine and for an avarage racer who do not know how to modify engines it was the only very expensive option to be competive with others.
These days the EFRA dropped their specs and now they adapted the IFMAR (3-port) specs.

Drivers want to go faster..... New EFRA exhaust rules from the EFRA is slowing down a lot which some racers do not like. OK everyone will have this problem but speed is in our blood.....

I do not think there is any room for a specced class. Only the pullstarter RTR kits can be setted up to a specced class and even then the guys running such cars have no interest than only driving on the parking.
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Old 04-28-2008, 06:46 AM   #15
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In the dirt oval world, the biggest race in the country (The US Open Wheel Championships) introduced what they called the limited classes last year. It's looking like possibly the most successful "spec" type program i've seen yet. Everyone must run the same bone stock OS TG engine to limit available power. The latemodels run with no sidedam and sprints have to have no front wing. The fuel is provided by Truespeed. Everything else is the same as the unlimited versions. Fewer rules makes it possible to do a full tech. The IGT class here in Tampa is an interesting idea, but without ripping every car all apart every week whats the point? You simply can't have spec class racing is nobody is willing to tech the cars.
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