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Old 10-19-2010, 01:23 PM   #2431
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Originally Posted by speed6 View Post
Hey DJ_Shakespear thanks for this answers in RED

Damn, I was hoping my really long response would've gone through. Well, here it goes again.


Yes, that's what I meant to say, tighter = thicker oil.

I've been told by Peter Jovanovic (3rd IFMAR? 2008?, top driver here in Australia), his dad and his bro that with the RRR's, you only want to go as low as 30K in the rear, and to start at 150K in the front. Im running that now and it runs very well, but it would be better for me to run 20K or so in the rear, and maybe go up to 200K or so in the front to even out the tire wear.
Where I run, there are faster right-hand turns so the left side wears out faster. My rear end does that, but because the front diff is fairly loose, the right front wheel actually wore out more than the left, making if fairly lop-sided
In my experience here is what I can give you.

Oversteer. Are you sure this is for oversteer as all the things you said give me big time understeer?Front end:
- make the front anti-roll bar more vertical/upright, or run a thicker wire, whichever you have**
- increase toe-out
- run a wider track width (a little less steering, gives a little more understeer feel)**
- make the shocks more vertical/upright** tried it understeer

- use harder springs** tried it understeer
- use thicker shock oil** tried it understeer

- use a harder compound foam** in front?- if using a 2mm split, increase it to 2.5mm or 3mm and see how it feels after that.
OFF POWER
- make the front of the chassis dive less when entering (should be 1 screw on each side of the front diff block, screw them in so the chassis stops lowering off power)**
- raise the front ride height/lower rear ride height**
CRUISING/MID CORNER
- raise front roll center
- harden the front/soften the rear springs**
- raise front roll center/decrease rear roll center.
- softer rear wheels/harder front wheels**
ON POWER- decrease front droop/make the chassis lift less (makes the rear drop quicker on-throttle instead of using that energy to lift the front up)
- make the shocks more flat**
- use softer rear springs**
- use thinner shock oil.**

If entering the corner you have too much speed, and when exiting the rear end always kicks out, lower your clutch engagement point to enter better, decrease the clutch gap to soften the way it engages on exit.
Done this but still drifts out a bit
Rear end:
- make the anti-roll bar flatter, use a thinner wire, OR just disconnect it **
- use a little more toe-in**
- if using 200mm track-width allround, decrease the rear to 199-198mm wide, somehow aids stability off power.
ON POWER
- increase toe-in**
- use thinner shock oil**
- make shocks more flat**
- use softer springs**
- use softer wheels**

All of this, is for oversteer. If I was to include understeer, you guessed it - it would be double what it is now.
Everything that has a ** at the end, do the opposite if you have understeer. Theres heaps more stuff I could say, but this is the short version

But remember, one change at a time, unless you need a drastic change!!
Plus 10+. best comprehensive advice I've seen on this forum. Perhaps it should also be mentioned that Peter J. is the current Australian 1/8 and 1/10 champion.

Kindest regards,
Lars.
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Old 10-19-2010, 10:04 PM   #2432
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That entire list is all of the POSSIBLE things to do inorder to get less oversteer. Obviously if you do them all, you may as well not having a steering servo.
Only go one thing at a time, and then see what happens with those changes. It's very hard to determine which would be the best thing to change unless I was there and witnessing what was happening.
So again, only do 1-2 things at a time and witness the results.
One other thing I forgot to mention, is HOW YOU DRIVE!!!
If you're constantly going WOT out of the corner, there isnt a thing in the world that will stop the rear from tailing out apart from literally running on rails!
Smooth out your motions and everything works MUCH better, steering and throttle of course. Don't blip the throttle during turns, it shakes the weight balance of the car. I still do it sometimes, but usually only once or twice.
Once you smooth out your throttle response, you might also find where you might be running rich or lean - exactly the case with my friends car when I drove it to find out what was wrong. Took it easy around the corners and it felt very rich, but when he drove it it seemed OK because he didn't let the engine load up at all.
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Old 10-20-2010, 09:15 AM   #2433
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Originally Posted by DJ_Shakespear View Post
That entire list is all of the POSSIBLE things to do inorder to get less oversteer. Obviously if you do them all, you may as well not having a steering servo.
Only go one thing at a time, and then see what happens with those changes. It's very hard to determine which would be the best thing to change unless I was there and witnessing what was happening.
So again, only do 1-2 things at a time and witness the results.
One other thing I forgot to mention, is HOW YOU DRIVE!!!
If you're constantly going WOT out of the corner, there isnt a thing in the world that will stop the rear from tailing out apart from literally running on rails!
Smooth out your motions and everything works MUCH better, steering and throttle of course. Don't blip the throttle during turns, it shakes the weight balance of the car. I still do it sometimes, but usually only once or twice.
Once you smooth out your throttle response, you might also find where you might be running rich or lean - exactly the case with my friends car when I drove it to find out what was wrong. Took it easy around the corners and it felt very rich, but when he drove it it seemed OK because he didn't let the engine load up at all.
Ah i see but my issue is undesteer i want to have lots of more steering , you wrote of what to do if you have oversteer right?

At first i thought i couldn't belevie what i was seeing.

Actually i am sure my driving is far better than my car is setuped at the moment as i know where i stand when the car works.

Thanks will try a few of what you said even though i almost covered everything you said

Are they in order of how i should change things?

Thanks once again
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Old 10-20-2010, 09:27 AM   #2434
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Ah i see but my issue is undesteer i want to have lots of more steering , you wrote of what to do if you have oversteer right?

At first i thought i couldn't belevie what i was seeing.

Actually i am sure my driving is far better than my car is setuped at the moment as i know where i stand when the car works.

Thanks will try a few of what you said even though i almost covered everything you said

Are they in order of how i should change things?

Thanks once again
After watching shimo at the worlds, you have the wrong car if you want steering. He made it work but it didn't look easy.

Cutting the top deck for flex, not attaching your bumper to the bulkhead, running wheel discs and other tricks could be where you need to look or wait for the 4r.
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Old 10-20-2010, 01:38 PM   #2435
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Originally Posted by speed6 View Post
Ah i see but my issue is undesteer i want to have lots of more steering , you wrote of what to do if you have oversteer right?

At first i thought i couldn't belevie what i was seeing.

Actually i am sure my driving is far better than my car is setuped at the moment as i know where i stand when the car works.

Thanks will try a few of what you said even though i almost covered everything you said

Are they in order of how i should change things?

Thanks once again
The "XRay Quick reference file" in the file attachment will give anyone a quick reference to which changes work to change first. Print out a copy to always bring with you to the race track. Also download "XRAY T2 Set-up Book" from this link http://www.teamxray.com/teamxray/pro...p?prod_id=1513 (the second one down on the list). This is the most easy to use and comprehensive guide to setups you'll ever find; and works on any car, not only XRay T2.

I'm surprised that anyone experiences understeer in a Kyosho? We have never had problems with understeer in any Kyosho, be it RR, RRR or S3 Evo. Our Kyoshos have always had heaps of steering, and my boy usually ends up turning the steering down on the radio in pre race practice. We had to program one of the toggle switches for quick adjustments to steering because of this.

Note that traction and steering comes from a balance between rear and front; so more rear traction will give you more understeer, and reverse. Understeer and oversteer can be corrected by adjustments to the rear end at times, and rear end traction can be often be corrected with front end adjustments.

Kindest regards,
Lars.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf xray-quick-reference.pdf (53.8 KB, 80 views)
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Last edited by Chickentrader; 10-20-2010 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 10-20-2010, 06:11 PM   #2436
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Originally Posted by speed6
Ah i see but my issue is undesteer i want to have lots of more steering , you wrote of what to do if you have oversteer right?
Yes, those are all the things you can do to get less oversteer/get less front end grip.

Quote:
At first i thought i couldn't believe what i was seeing.

Actually i am sure my driving is far better than my car is setup at the moment as i know where i stand when the car works.

Thanks will try a few of what you said even though i almost covered everything you said

Are they in order of how i should change things?

Thanks once again
Hmm, going into my minds memory I thought somewhere you said you were getting oversteer somewhere :s

Anyways, Im sure that Chickentrader's link would say what to start adjusting first (i haven't looked at THAT link, but I know Ive seen it somewhere and im sure it was from XRay)
Either go to that, or just start from the kit setup, which I can give you if you need.
Start from there and you should be right in the ballpark, and then see what you need to do from there minus wheel hardness (go from what you know works well instead of using 35 Shore allround, unless that IS what you use)
Start with that and see how you go!
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Last edited by DJ_Shakespear; 10-20-2010 at 06:14 PM. Reason: Missing info
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Old 10-21-2010, 01:56 AM   #2437
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Originally Posted by Brian Bosley View Post
After watching shimo at the worlds, you have the wrong car if you want steering. He made it work but it didn't look easy.

Cutting the top deck for flex, not attaching your bumper to the bulkhead, running wheel discs and other tricks could be where you need to look or wait for the 4r.
i thought of cutting the top deck but not attaching bumber to the bulhhead seems like that it would be dangerous in a crash.

What about the wheel discs??
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Old 10-21-2010, 07:41 AM   #2438
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i thought of cutting the top deck but not attaching bumber to the bulhhead seems like that it would be dangerous in a crash.

What about the wheel discs??
wheel discs give you more steering at high speed, the air doesn't move through the wheel. it isn't much but it can help. just cut them so that they can be bolted to the wheel or they will fly off.
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Old 10-21-2010, 07:49 AM   #2439
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Default Roll center and diff questions

Dear all, can you kindly clear the following:

Rollcenter

1. Front upper rollcenter adjustment.

The upper/higher the hing pin is the higher the rollcenter i.e. less front tracktion. The lower the more front traction? right?

2. The rear upper rollcenter adjustment

the lower ( more traction to the rear )
the higher ( less traction to the rear )

3. what about going on the outer area i know it has to do with camber but what is its purpose exactly? why would you go on the outer area?

4. I also beleive if i remember correctly that the upper camber link is to fine tune the rollcenter.

5. Also how can you know if your rollcenter is to low or to high?

Diff Front / Rear

1.How can you notice that your car is diffing out?
2. I read somewhere that if you have a big difference as for silicone diff oil between the front and the rear diff the F & R tyre will not wear evenly.
3. The lighter oil the diffs have the more off power steering but what will happen to the on power than? also does this apply for the front?

Thanks
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Old 10-21-2010, 07:49 AM   #2440
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wheel discs give you more steering at high speed, the air doesn't move through the wheel. it isn't much but it can help. just cut them so that they can be bolted to the wheel or they will fly off.
Can you by these discs?
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:05 AM   #2441
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Can you by these discs?
probably from somebody overpriced, you can cut them from lexan too
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Old 10-21-2010, 01:43 PM   #2442
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Originally Posted by speed6 View Post
Dear all, can you kindly clear the following:

Rollcenter

1. Front upper rollcenter adjustment.

The upper/higher the hing pin is the higher the rollcenter i.e. less front tracktion. The lower the more front traction? right?

2. The rear upper rollcenter adjustment

the lower ( more traction to the rear )
the higher ( less traction to the rear )

3. what about going on the outer area i know it has to do with camber but what is its purpose exactly? why would you go on the outer area?

4. I also beleive if i remember correctly that the upper camber link is to fine tune the rollcenter.

5. Also how can you know if your rollcenter is to low or to high?

Diff Front / Rear

1.How can you notice that your car is diffing out?
2. I read somewhere that if you have a big difference as for silicone diff oil between the front and the rear diff the F & R tyre will not wear evenly.
3. The lighter oil the diffs have the more off power steering but what will happen to the on power than? also does this apply for the front?

Thanks
All this is explained in the Hudy XRay T2 setup book at http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X1295...o-2-a-163.html . Download it and read through all the sections that cover the above setup options, and you will understand all this. Serpent has a similar setup book; but it only tells you the same, and Hudy's book is generally accepted as the universal setup Bible. Everyone should have copy.

Kindest regards,
Lars.
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Old 10-21-2010, 06:30 PM   #2443
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All this is explained in the Hudy XRay T2 setup book at http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X1295...o-2-a-163.html . Download it and read through all the sections that cover the above setup options, and you will understand all this. Serpent has a similar setup book; but it only tells you the same, and Hudy's book is generally accepted as the universal setup Bible. Everyone should have copy.

Kindest regards,
Lars.
BUT if you CBF reading it, Ill try to explain what I can.

Front RC:
If you raise the upper arm, you raise the front RC. In doing so you get:
-Less on-power steering/More off-power steering. (I have 2 setup books telling me the opposite there, and I can't really say which is right as I haven't needed to try it. I noticed with a higher front RC, it has less grip)
-Less chassis roll.

If you lower the front RC, you get:
-More low-speed steering
-More on-throttle steering
-More camber change
-More roll
-Less high-speed steering
-Decreases cars responsiveness
In general, it turns in better.

With the rear end, it gets a little trickier with which adjustments can do what.
-Higher RC, you get more steering if the front RC is lower. Less rear grip.
-Lower RC, more grip, more roll

If you lower the lower arm, you lower the roll center.
Camber links:
-More parallel, you lower the RC and give it more roll.
-More angled (higher towards the wheel hub), you raise the RC, get less roll but more camber change.
-Lower the inner position, raise the RC
-Raise the inner position, lower the RC

What do you mean in Q#3? If you mean the inner camber link holes, they change the camber gain and RC.

You know its too high or too low if you try to get less or more grip but nothing really works or you've done as much as you can. That's what I think.

With diffs, Im not sure how to notice with nitro's, but Im sure if both the front and rear diffs were too thin, when you go round a fast corner and the inside lifts, you would notice a drop in acceleration, but hear the engine rev hard. Ive never really noticed a full diff-out, and Ive been told its very hard to notice.
Going a big difference in diff oils from front to rear, whoever told you they won't wear evenly is right but it has nothing to do with the diffs. Using a 50k rear diff and spool in the front is really a 50K/(infinite)K combination. The rear will always wear faster than the front, but side to side is a different story. I have 150K in the front of mine, and my track normally causes the left side to wear faster, but since switched to a diff in the front, having it too thin made the right side wear a little faster than the left!

And there you have it, another batch of info from the future world champion
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Old 10-21-2010, 06:53 PM   #2444
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Originally Posted by DJ_Shakespear View Post
BUT if you CBF reading it, Ill try to explain what I can.

Front RC:
If you raise the upper arm, you raise the front RC. In doing so you get:
-Less on-power steering/More off-power steering. (I have 2 setup books telling me the opposite there, and I can't really say which is right as I haven't needed to try it. I noticed with a higher front RC, it has less grip)
-Less chassis roll.

If you lower the front RC, you get:
-More low-speed steering
-More on-throttle steering
-More camber change
-More roll
-Less high-speed steering
-Decreases cars responsiveness
In general, it turns in better.

With the rear end, it gets a little trickier with which adjustments can do what.
-Higher RC, you get more steering if the front RC is lower. Less rear grip.
-Lower RC, more grip, more roll

If you lower the lower arm, you lower the roll center.
Camber links:
-More parallel, you lower the RC and give it more roll.
-More angled (higher towards the wheel hub), you raise the RC, get less roll but more camber change.
-Lower the inner position, raise the RC
-Raise the inner position, lower the RC

What do you mean in Q#3? If you mean the inner camber link holes, they change the camber gain and RC.

You know its too high or too low if you try to get less or more grip but nothing really works or you've done as much as you can. That's what I think.

With diffs, Im not sure how to notice with nitro's, but Im sure if both the front and rear diffs were too thin, when you go round a fast corner and the inside lifts, you would notice a drop in acceleration, but hear the engine rev hard. Ive never really noticed a full diff-out, and Ive been told its very hard to notice.
Going a big difference in diff oils from front to rear, whoever told you they won't wear evenly is right but it has nothing to do with the diffs. Using a 50k rear diff and spool in the front is really a 50K/(infinite)K combination. The rear will always wear faster than the front, but side to side is a different story. I have 150K in the front of mine, and my track normally causes the left side to wear faster, but since switched to a diff in the front, having it too thin made the right side wear a little faster than the left!

And there you have it, another batch of info from the future world champion
The 2 highlighted statements are wrong. You have them backwards. If you race the front upper arm hingepin, you lower the RC. And in the back, if you lower the lower arm hingepin you raice the RC.
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Old 10-21-2010, 11:27 PM   #2445
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The 2 highlighted statements are wrong. You have them backwards. If you race the front upper arm hingepin, you lower the RC. And in the back, if you lower the lower arm hingepin you raice the RC.
How is it wrong? If you lower the rear hingepin location for example, you make the slope/imaginary line from the rear arm going down faster/make it point downwards more, so where the camber link essentially joins up with these "imaginary" lines, it will be much lower, see what I mean?? Or is there something I've totally missed?
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