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Old 03-31-2008, 03:03 PM   #46
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if they really wanted to prove me wrong, they would sawzall their cars chassis down the middle for "flex tuning" and provide some data as to how great it was... lol

its also not about grip or balance.. chassis flex on a real car intruduces and inconsistent variable, and the car will become unpredictable..
If we all agree that you know more than any of us about full scale cars can we talk about R/C cars again?
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Old 03-31-2008, 03:18 PM   #47
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You can not take away all the flex, the example of a drillbit is one of them.

We are experimenting with several materials for a conrod and crankpin in a RC engine. We made a very stiff conrod from very strong pistonmaterial. It works great but after 15 minutes it snaps in thousend pieces....
Also as a crankpin we used several hardened pins which seems to brake very quicly, after using a shaft of a very expensive drill bit it seems to work.

The same counts for designing cars, normal road cars have some flex to save expensive materials but as I remember a story it will help in the control of the car.

Racing cars do reach higher speeds and so the grip is more important that is the reason of using more expensive materials to get it stiff withtout breaking and more control over the suspension.
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Old 03-31-2008, 03:21 PM   #48
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Chassis flex is not good. However, bad suspension set-up is also not good and sometimes a little chassis flex can help that. I am speaking of RC here, not real cars because while I too have some experience there it is not the topic of this discussion.

I remember a certain super stiff RC car that was a pretty dismal failure. The problem with car was that you could never find a sweet spot in the set-up. The car would push (understeer), you make a small adjustment and now it's loose (oversteer). The car was consistently beaten by less sophisticated and more flexible cars. This was not because flexible was better, it was because super stiff was impossible to find a good set-up.

Now if we had a real human ass sitting in the car and more adjustable shocks and finer tuning aids and REAL data logging and so on and so forth, then a super stiff car would be the way to go but until then a small amount of flex is going to make all of our lives easier.

The statement that a flexible car is easier to drive is false. A well balanced, good handling car is easier to drive. A super stiff car (again I'm just talking RC here) with a perfect set-up would be the easiest car on the planet to drive but given our situation I doubt we find that set-up anytime soon. So, if you have to drive a car that is not set-up very well, adding a little flex will make it drive better but probably not as well as the stiff car with a better set-up.

I'm rambling here and probably sound like I am contradicting myself but it's the best I can do.
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Old 03-31-2008, 04:36 PM   #49
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Like I said a few days ago, these are not full size cars and what we do is not the same, many times a little flex helps.

As you can see from the following quote from the X-Ray report from the Worlds Warm up:

"Because the traction was not as good as last year in Spain, the first change I decided to do was change from the 4mm optional chassis to standard chassis. The car got more traction and only steering was needed." Martin Hudy.
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Old 03-31-2008, 07:47 PM   #50
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Wings in a mid' position if adjustable. Sway bars off.Or full soft.? so your telling me, you would go to PIR, firebird, road atlanta with a Formula Atlantic with no swaybars on it and wings at 18*F and 37*R? The track day you did with your miata at willow springs doesn't count old buddy...
Actually on full scale I would go with NO sway bars, wings at flat and dampers at full soft. Thats to START testing at a track I have never been to before.
But thats Renault Motorsport for you...lol.

Credentials?....... maybe three world championships counts?? I don't know..lol
No, silly, I didn't drive, but I was race engineer at Renault when Alain Menu was around All I have to do now is learn how to spell and type.

RC is different thats true and I ponder over the reasons why alot.
BUT theory does not change......
There's always flex in a car, blimey, most of the parts on our rc cars are made of plastic! So there's always going to be plenty of flex, in comparison to full scale I mean. (Scaled down that is)

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Old 03-31-2008, 07:50 PM   #51
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Chassis flex is not good. However, bad suspension set-up is also not good and sometimes a little chassis flex can help that. I am speaking of RC here, not real cars because while I too have some experience there it is not the topic of this discussion.

I remember a certain super stiff RC car that was a pretty dismal failure. The problem with car was that you could never find a sweet spot in the set-up. The car would push (understeer), you make a small adjustment and now it's loose (oversteer). The car was consistently beaten by less sophisticated and more flexible cars. This was not because flexible was better, it was because super stiff was impossible to find a good set-up.

Now if we had a real human ass sitting in the car and more adjustable shocks and finer tuning aids and REAL data logging and so on and so forth, then a super stiff car would be the way to go but until then a small amount of flex is going to make all of our lives easier.

The statement that a flexible car is easier to drive is false. A well balanced, good handling car is easier to drive. A super stiff car (again I'm just talking RC here) with a perfect set-up would be the easiest car on the planet to drive but given our situation I doubt we find that set-up anytime soon. So, if you have to drive a car that is not set-up very well, adding a little flex will make it drive better but probably not as well as the stiff car with a better set-up.

I'm rambling here and probably sound like I am contradicting myself but it's the best I can do.

Absolutely and all so true and very well put !!

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Old 03-31-2008, 08:14 PM   #52
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Actually on full scale I would go with NO sway bars, wings at flat and dampers at full soft. Thats to START testing at a track I have never been to before.
But thats Renault Motorsport for you...lol.

Credentials?....... maybe three world championships counts?? I don't know..lol
No, silly, I didn't drive, but I was race engineer at Renault when Alain Menu was around All I have to do now is learn how to spell and type.

RC is different thats true and I ponder over the reasons why alot.
BUT theory does not change......
There's always flex in a car, blimey, most of the parts on our rc cars are made of plastic! So there's always going to be plenty of flex, in comparison to full scale I mean. (Scaled down that is)

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Your not realted to Max Mosley are you?
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Old 03-31-2008, 09:49 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by British Menace View Post
Actually on full scale I would go with NO sway bars, wings at flat and dampers at full soft. Thats to START testing at a track I have never been to before.
But thats Renault Motorsport for you...lol.

Credentials?....... maybe three world championships counts?? I don't know..lol
No, silly, I didn't drive, but I was race engineer at Renault when Alain Menu was around All I have to do now is learn how to spell and type.

RC is different thats true and I ponder over the reasons why alot.
BUT theory does not change......
There's always flex in a car, blimey, most of the parts on our rc cars are made of plastic! So there's always going to be plenty of flex, in comparison to full scale I mean. (Scaled down that is)

Regards
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well thats going to take you a while to get to a decent setup eh? no wing in it and full soft? Good luck with that..
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Old 03-31-2008, 09:54 PM   #54
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btw BTCC is kinda weak btw lol.. DTM makes me drool..
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Old 03-31-2008, 09:57 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by British Menace View Post
RC is different thats true and I ponder over the reasons why alot.
BUT theory does not change......
There's always flex in a car, blimey, most of the parts on our rc cars are made of plastic! So there's always going to be plenty of flex, in comparison to full scale I mean.
We know everything flexes..
setup asside, since when have you found a chassis in a 1:1 car that flexes more, a benifit?
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Old 04-01-2008, 02:27 PM   #56
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We know everything flexes..
setup asside, since when have you found a chassis in a 1:1 car that flexes more, a benifit?
Never............. !!!!!!!!!
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Old 04-01-2008, 02:33 PM   #57
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well thats going to take you a while to get to a decent setup eh? no wing in it and full soft? Good luck with that..
Oh don't worry. We did it all the time, especially with new cars.

Once we had the damper data in we were able to get roll bar and wing settings locked down prity quickly.

I guess that's what comes of doing it proffesionally...lol

You never should have flex in a car. As I have said the ultimatley rigid chassis still eludes the designers.

This is why rc racing facinates me in that the fast drivers are able to go faster (sometimes) by adding flex. As was stated by Mr. Hudy earlier.

Oh and DTM........................ ?
Is really good too. I liked the look of the cars very much!

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Old 04-01-2008, 02:34 PM   #58
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Your not realted to Max Mosley are you?
Lol........ errrrr

No
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Old 04-01-2008, 02:37 PM   #59
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btw BTCC is kinda weak btw lol.. DTM makes me drool..
btw......... F1 was the best. Beneton
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Old 04-01-2008, 02:38 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by rx7ttlm View Post
if they really wanted to prove me wrong, they would sawzall their cars chassis down the middle for "flex tuning" and provide some data as to how great it was... lol

its also not about grip or balance.. chassis flex on a real car intruduces and inconsistent variable, and the car will become unpredictable..
And this is absolutely right.............
I agree entirley with what your saying here!!
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