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Old 07-25-2007, 08:40 AM   #1
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Default "Freshest" tires

I had someone call me yesterday and tell me that a certain tire importer was trying to sell him on his brand of tires because they were using the "freshest" rubber on the market. I thought before anyone bought into this line of BS, that I should set the record straight.
All the rubber comes in "blocks" or "buns" from the manufacturer. When it arrives, it has a smooth "skin" all the way around it. This is a result of the baking process, much like the crust on a loaf of bread. When we slice a thin layer of skin off, it exposes the cells that we all recognize when we look at a tire. We must remove the skin in order to be able to laminate the rubber into the correct thickness since the glue will not stick to the smooth skin. This outer layer of skin also serves another purpose- it traps the air in the tiny cells that make up the sheets. As soon as the skin is penetrated, by cutting or slicing, the air in the cells start to escape. As the air escapes, thus starts the "aging" process of the rubber. Over time, as the gas escapes, the rubber will begin to shrink as the cells collapse. This really does not hurt the tires, but it does make the durometer rating go up over time.
We have all our rubber shiped to us in bun form. In other words, this process of ageing does not even begin until we cut the sheets. The typical time from when we cut a sheet to when the tires actually ship can be as quick as 2 days. There is NO ONE who can sell tires any "fresher" than JACO. Any tire coming from overseas is at least weeks, if not months old. So don't believe a word of this "ours is the freshest" crap.
Now, with that said, I personally don't believe it makes much difference how old or "fresh" a tire is, as long as it is not dry-rotted. We have actually won races with tires that were 5 years old! My point is that not only are they misleading the public about what they are selling, they are also wrong about the effect of fresh tires in general. Some of you may disagree about whether a fresh tire is better than an old one...and I won't disagree. Perhaps YOU can tell a difference. If that's the case, then you should try JACO if you want really "fresh" rubber.
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Old 07-25-2007, 08:50 AM   #2
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I had someone call me yesterday and tell me that a certain tire importer was trying to sell him on his brand of tires because they were using the "freshest" rubber on the market. I thought before anyone bought into this line of BS, that I should set the record straight.
All the rubber comes in "blocks" or "buns" from the manufacturer. When it arrives, it has a smooth "skin" all the way around it. This is a result of the baking process, much like the crust on a loaf of bread. When we slice a thin layer of skin off, it exposes the cells that we all recognize when we look at a tire. We must remove the skin in order to be able to laminate the rubber into the correct thickness since the glue will not stick to the smooth skin. This outer layer of skin also serves another purpose- it traps the air in the tiny cells that make up the sheets. As soon as the skin is penetrated, by cutting or slicing, the air in the cells start to escape. As the air escapes, thus starts the "aging" process of the rubber. Over time, as the gas escapes, the rubber will begin to shrink as the cells collapse. This really does not hurt the tires, but it does make the durometer rating go up over time.
We have all our rubber shiped to us in bun form. In other words, this process of ageing does not even begin until we cut the sheets. The typical time from when we cut a sheet to when the tires actually ship can be as quick as 2 days. There is NO ONE who can sell tires any "fresher" than JACO. Any tire coming from overseas is at least weeks, if not months old. So don't believe a word of this "ours is the freshest" crap.
Now, with that said, I personally don't believe it makes much difference how old or "fresh" a tire is, as long as it is not dry-rotted. We have actually won races with tires that were 5 years old! My point is that not only are they misleading the public about what they are selling, they are also wrong about the effect of fresh tires in general. Some of you may disagree about whether a fresh tire is better than an old one...and I won't disagree. Perhaps YOU can tell a difference. If that's the case, then you should try JACO if you want really "fresh" rubber.
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Old 07-25-2007, 09:04 AM   #3
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No, it's not an advertisement. Consider it a public service announcement.
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Old 07-25-2007, 09:10 AM   #4
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No, it's not an advertisement. Consider it a public service announcement.
ok. The offer of sponsorship is still there if you would like to take it though
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Old 07-25-2007, 10:10 AM   #5
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Default Fresh rubber

I have to agree with Jack . I have ran some 5 year old tires that worked great.
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Old 07-25-2007, 10:13 AM   #6
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I have to agree with Jack . I have ran some 5 year old tires that worked great.
lol same here...i honestly don't notice the difference, especially if you true them down before use i do notice they go harder though. i don't know if this is a big no no or not, but i found old dodgy tyres sometimes come up in grip if you spray them with metholated spirits let them dry out of course before use
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Old 07-25-2007, 10:18 AM   #7
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I always thought that once we cut our tires down to race size we would be cutting away any portion of the foam that may have dried out from sitting the store/warehouse. With that said once my tires are cut I store them out of the sun in airtight bags to prevent further drying until use. I have only been running foams for just over a year now but I know that tires I cut last year and have not yest used are still the same size and retain that nasty new foam smell.

Is my thinking flawed or I going about it the right way?

Mark
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Old 07-25-2007, 10:26 AM   #8
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Uhm... maybe Jack could agree to what I'm telling but... sometimes the 'freshest foam' isn't the best.

I have some sets of 'aged foam' that works really well on high traction conditions. I keep NIB some sets and let it age for the time that I need some harder than what I'm using usually (I struggle to keep just a pair of hardness: 37 & 40's, but the aged 40's works for me much better than... let's say 42's and higher shores).

An 'aged 40' and a 40 isn't the same.

Maybe Jack can say something more about 'aged tyres' or... is only a mental thing?
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Old 07-25-2007, 11:01 AM   #9
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Honestly, I really don't have an opinion on "aged" tires. I don't believe there is a huge difference between old and new tires as long as you skim the surface of the old ones to remove any glazing. This is the reason we don't seal our tires in the box. There is no need as long as the tires are not exposed to UV light.
I suspect that your "aged" 40's have hardened up and that is why they work better on a high bite surface. They are probably more like a 42 than a 40 after sitting and outgassing has occured.
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Old 07-25-2007, 11:08 AM   #10
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Hi Jack. Let me start off by saying, I've learned a lot from your posts about tires and I've come to respect what you have to say. One of these days, I will get a Tire KB up and quite a bit of your expertise will be included in it.

As I have come to learn in the short time that I've been in this hobby, slick marketing and personal opinions can easily steer people into certain perceptions about products or how things should be done. "Better", "faster", "longer lasting", "more durable" and yes, even "fresher" are key words that lead people into believing what is being stated or put in writing. Some times it may actually be true and at other times, it may not. In the absence of scientific data - it's hard to tell the difference, so people rely on their personal opinions, magazines, dealers, team drivers and their peers.

Many people may perceive K Factory Racing tires as being "fresh rubber". It comes in a sealed package that turns into a zip lock bag once opened. The bag is several mils thick, so it's unlikely that any new air is getting into it. When you open it, you definitely get that "fresh ground coffee" smell. After you true the tires, you can put them back into the bag and seal it - and because of the color of the packaging, it's easy to mark them on the outside with a Sharpie to figure out what's inside the bag. Very slick.

Here are some questions:

1. Is there any benefit derived from the type of packaging that K Factory Racing is using? From what you said above, escaping air ages the tires and collapses the cells - which also increases the durometer reading. Does sealing the tires in an air tight bag slow the aging process?

2. Doesn't an increase in durometer readings mean that the tires are actually harder than when they were manufactured? In other words, if you had four set of 40 shore tires and let them sit for 1, 12, 18 and 24 months, would the performance characteristics of the 3 latter sets be the same as first set? How about between the latter 3 sets?

3. Have you ever tried or would you consider bagging Jaco tires in this manner, just for it's research value to the public? Conduct a controlled experiment with several sets of bagged, unbagged, new and used tires and then publish the results? Supporting data would set the records straight.

I have lots of new and used Jaco tires sitting around the house. Some are in zip lock bags, just cause it's convenient for me to store it that way. The new cut tires are in their original boxes - cause it's convenient from me to store them that way. I also have K Factory tires sitting unbagged, organized neatly in a box. And Kawaharas that are sitting new in their boxes waiting to be cut. Clearly, I'm not fanatical when it comes to storing my tires.
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Old 07-25-2007, 12:30 PM   #11
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Wow. Too many questions I don't know the answer to.
In theory, I like what K Factory does with their packaging. It is a good idea. Does it help? Perhaps. Does it hurt? Certainly not.
It is difficult to predict how quickly a tire will age and what are the results of the process. I'm sure all sheets outgas at different rates so some tires may harden quicker than others. I do believe that the firmer tires are more prone to hardening than softer tires. Also, REAR tires are much more susceptable to change than fronts. Front tires hardly change at all.
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Old 07-25-2007, 03:52 PM   #12
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... Also, REAR tires are much more susceptable to change than fronts. Front tires hardly change at all.
Jack,
front foam and rear foam are different???? on the same shore??? different cell structure or different...what???

Thanks for your time
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Old 07-25-2007, 05:18 PM   #13
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Jack,
front foam and rear foam are different???? on the same shore??? different cell structure or different...what???

Thanks for your time
Yeah, they are different foam. Haven't you ever noticed when truing tires that the fronts tend to produce more smoke than rears?
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Old 07-25-2007, 05:28 PM   #14
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Jack, You have a PM.
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Old 07-25-2007, 06:12 PM   #15
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Jack,
front foam and rear foam are different???? on the same shore??? different cell structure or different...what???

Thanks for your time

Completely different rubber.
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