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Old 09-08-2003, 07:53 AM   #9031
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I'm resisting those hop-ups.

I should report on our night meeting last Saturday. This was at our home track, Dandenong (http://www.serccc.org/).

For those that don't know, it's a medium traction technical track and while the weather was pleasent in the afternoon it soon progressed to cold after dusk - I would guess about 10c. All I know is we were opening up needles regularly and trying to avoid flame-outs. The track was pretty clean, partly due to the fancy new tennis court roller/water picker upper device the club recently purchased. It seems to have picked up a lot of rubbish along with doing a fine job of collecting the water. We've had a lot of meetings rained out recently.

For the first heat we went out on an older set of 35's using the previous set-up but with additional front droop. The car worked well, but the additional droop was a mistake. My driver finished in TQ.

For the second heat and with a half decent run under the belt, I thought we should be scrubbing in some new tyres, just in case. My driver had a less than perfect run taking more hits than a red headed step daughter. He broke a front dogbone and retired. I expected the fresh tyres to be rather squishy, since they were new out of the box and LARGE - rears were 65.5mm, but they were very good. The car had never looked better.

Third heat was not much better - he collected a board and jammed a front dogbone - retired. This put him in fourth spot for the final

After about five minutes into the final, and leading, it was discovered there was a computer problem and the race was stopped. On the restart, he was in about fourth (I think) and travelling pretty well. Weather conditions were getting colder and we flamed during a pitstop. Later, second place holder also flamed and Sam was able to take over that spot. During the closing minutes, the leader (rjl), lost a front doggie or something - anyway he was three wheel drive and limping. With no commentry, I thought he was some distance ahead and told Sam to just bring the car home. It turns out he wasn't that far ahead and Sam was to cross the finish line in front by only a few feet. It seems neither driver knew how far apart they were - I certainly didn't.

Our set-up is departing from the kit somewhat, and for those interested, here it is.

Front:

Springs Black (Kit)
Shock Oil (Kit)
Droop 2mm
Camber 1.25
Toe OUT 1.5
Ride height 6.5mm
Caster Centered
Anti-roll bar Full soft
Tyres Active 35

Rear:

Diff Oil (Kit)
Springs Black (Kit)
Shock Oil (Kit)
Droop 3.5mm
Camber 2.5
Toe IN 2.5
Ride height 7mm
Anti-roll bar Black (Kit)
Tyres Active 35

I should note that we found this set-up to have a little understeer on power.
I intend to kill a bit of the front toe-out or go to a harder rear bar. Thanks Data.
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Old 09-08-2003, 08:11 AM   #9032
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Quote:
Originally posted by Taylor-Racing
The car worked well, but the additional droop was a mistake.
What happened? Why was it a mistake? Too much oversteer or understeer?

BTW, congrats on the win
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Old 09-08-2003, 08:33 AM   #9033
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Quote:
Originally posted by InitialD
What happened? Why was it a mistake? Too much oversteer or understeer?

BTW, congrats on the win
Well, this was the first outing for the car at our home track and we usually run a bit more droop there - seems to help the suspension work a bit more.
The front end of the Evo is different and we ended up with too much on-power understeer. At 2mm droop, it's a lot better. I guess we could still reduce that some more.
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Old 09-08-2003, 05:45 PM   #9034
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Default V1-RR EVO

Hi Guys,

Ran the new EVO at Moorebank last weekend for the first time and from what i can see the basic handling of the car is pretty similar to the old car.

The lower CG has definatly helped but the power on understeer is still present. The car definatly has more low speed steering thanks to the front geometry changes.

Once this power on understeer is fixed with some changes to the setup the car should be reasonably close to the mark.

The car is pretty much an easy car to drive with the gentle understeer, but it will never be fast enough........

Kyle
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Old 09-08-2003, 06:42 PM   #9035
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Will this work for the V-one R? just need to confirm..


thanks,
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Old 09-08-2003, 07:26 PM   #9036
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Default Re: V1-RR EVO

Quote:
Originally posted by Kyle Hazell
Hi Guys,

Ran the new EVO at Moorebank last weekend for the first time and from what i can see the basic handling of the car is pretty similar to the old car.

The lower CG has definatly helped but the power on understeer is still present. The car definatly has more low speed steering thanks to the front geometry changes.

Once this power on understeer is fixed with some changes to the setup the car should be reasonably close to the mark.

The car is pretty much an easy car to drive with the gentle understeer, but it will never be fast enough........

Kyle
What rear diff setting are you using? I was able to easily eliminate on power push with a rear diff oil change...............
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Old 09-08-2003, 07:32 PM   #9037
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Default Re: Re: V1-RR EVO

Quote:
Originally posted by AMGRacer
What rear diff setting are you using? I was able to easily eliminate on power push with a rear diff oil change...............
Interesting... What is the rule of thumb for the diff oil AMG?
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Old 09-08-2003, 07:51 PM   #9038
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Default Re: Re: Re: V1-RR EVO

Quote:
Originally posted by esham
Interesting... What is the rule of thumb for the diff oil AMG?
Well this is unfortunately very hard to say for sure.

I would offer this suggestion, but it is very subject to change depending on the race surface.............

5000wt - Low traction course
10000wt - Medium traction course
30000wt - High traction course

Possibly you can go higher as well above 30000 if you course is high grip.

The problem with rear diff adjustment is more high weight reduces off power steering and can make you spin out entering a corner in low grip circumstance. High weight gives good acceleration and on power steering.

One item I can recommend is the LSD or the active diff. The LSD allows you to run light oil for low grip course, but locks up on power for better on power steering.

The Active diff allows you to very easily adjust your rear diff stiffness for better on power steering.

Diff oil is a very very important tuning aid which is often forgotten or neglected since making changes is such an annoyance.
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Old 09-08-2003, 08:05 PM   #9039
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Thannnk you AMG.. I understood what you mean there. Quit sometime ago I do raise a question about diff oil but really not get reply until it been explained now.
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Old 09-08-2003, 08:11 PM   #9040
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Default Diff Oil

What rear diff setting are you using? I was able to easily eliminate on power push with a rear diff oil change...............

30000 wt -

I think the car needs a Fantom style rear swaybar or a roll center change to be honest. Often in med to high traction 5 deg neg camber has to be run on the rear because it rolls around so much.

For example i used Fantom white springs all round, which is pretty stiff compared to the std black springs. This spring setup is ok for Moorebank where tyre wear is not a problem, but on a track like Lilydale, Brendale etc where tyre wear is a problem over 30 mins. For the final i started on 56 fronts 57 rears.......

Kyle
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Old 09-08-2003, 08:19 PM   #9041
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Default Re: Diff Oil

Hey Kyle

Why you selling your fantom??

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Old 09-08-2003, 08:20 PM   #9042
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: V1-RR EVO

Quote:
Originally posted by AMGRacer
...Diff oil is a very very important tuning aid which is often forgotten or neglected since making changes is such an annoyance.


this simple change affects the car's handling as dramatically as a tire swap. Very few think very hard about it, but what you said is sooooo true.


*EDIT- I forgot to write something... I mean I forgot to write anything! *
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Old 09-08-2003, 08:22 PM   #9043
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Default Re: Diff Oil

Quote:
Originally posted by Kyle Hazell
What rear diff setting are you using? I was able to easily eliminate on power push with a rear diff oil change...............

30000 wt -

I think the car needs a Fantom style rear swaybar or a roll center change to be honest. Often in med to high traction 5 deg neg camber has to be run on the rear because it rolls around so much.

For example i used Fantom white springs all round, which is pretty stiff compared to the std black springs. This spring setup is ok for Moorebank where tyre wear is not a problem, but on a track like Lilydale, Brendale etc where tyre wear is a problem over 30 mins. For the final i started on 56 fronts 57 rears.......

Kyle
Interesting, have you tried 50000wt?

This goes against my findings at both Meakin park and Brendale, but of course Moorebank may well have its own individual characteristics.

I have posted previously how my requirement for camber has reduced around 1 degree from the old RR on the EVO. I only need 3 degrees on Brendale to keep the wear nice and even.
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Old 09-08-2003, 09:58 PM   #9044
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Hello all- took newly converted m1rrevo to test on sun and the only thing I can say about the conversion is it looked nice. I had major tuning problem with the RB would lean out after a couple of laps, I looked for air leak but couldnt find any. Changed fuel tubeing and checked fuel filter for debris. Nothing so I went home a little discouraged

Maybe next time
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Old 09-08-2003, 11:54 PM   #9045
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Thinking about the on power steering issue a little more.

I actually use the 25T side pulley and normally run the front rear split at around 3mm. This means that my tires are 1.5mm larger in front than in the rear (if the drive ratio was 1:1) and therefore I have a fairly significant overdrive. If you are running the tires 56/57 then you actually are starting with an underdriven car which possibly is contributing to your on power push. The overdrive sure gives my car nice yank out of the corners.

If you dont want to run that big of a split get the optional 26T side pulley which means your split is 2.25 mm front and rear to get a 1:1 ratio. If you use 56/57 mm tires than your overdrive front mm is 1.25 which is similar to mine. This should make your car nicer out of the corners.

The other theory that I have been kicking around is what difference the smaller front tires have on the front geometry. Since my tires are much smaller on the front than the rear my front/rear roll centres will be different than somebody running the 1:1 ratio. Perhaps this is why our cars are handling different........... Somebody more knowledgable about this stuff can mayby comment.

I played with my M1RR conversion a fair bit and actually came to the conclusion that changing the rear roll centre did not actually make the Kyosho "better" just different.
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