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Old 12-31-2002, 02:16 PM   #5551
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Originally posted by nova racer
I think that the best way would be to make a bracket that fits on the bulk heat because you dont want to add any unsprung weight to the hubs
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Old 12-31-2002, 05:20 PM   #5552
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wolf
Hi AMG,

How you do that? Could you post some pictures so that we can try? Thanks.
Happy New Year! Well let me explain my reasoning a little more.

Firstly I have been playing with my electric car rear camber linkages a fair bit lately. I have found I liked them high at my tracks since the tracks have a lot of high speed stuff in them. I also noticed the Serpent Pro and the Mugen MTX3 have had a trend of increasing the rear camber linkage angle.

When the rear linkage angle is changed it actually has two effects. Firstly as the suspension compresses a higher rear linkage angle gives more camber change. More camber increases the lateral bite of a tire. Too much static camber however will reduce the cars ability to accelerate in a straight line and brake as the contact patch is reduced. Therefore a mild static angle and substantial camber change under compression is desirable for high speed stuff.

The second effect of an angled rear camber linkage is that it effects the position of the cars roll centre. The roll centre is raised in the static position making the car want to roll at that end much less initially.

I dont have access to my own digicam so I will have to borrow one for pictures. But it was pretty easy (and hack!) what I did.

I took two body posts whose holes I noticed lined up almost exactly with the two holes in the rear hub. So I drilled out the body post holes to 2.5mm and attached them to the hub with two machine threaded 3mm screws. Then I cut down the body post to the desired length and drilled another 2.5mm hole into the end of it. I rotated the rear camber linkage outer attachment point 90 degrees to face down and to screw into the top of the body post.

Also because I have an RR the camber linkage now was hitting the floating mount. I had to severely cut it back to make it fit. Lastly it also makes the rear mount sit very high.
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Old 12-31-2002, 05:24 PM   #5553
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Quote:
Originally posted by Taylor-Racing
Amasing

One of my experiments before the start of the new season is to do essentially the same thing for the same reasons.

However, I am going to "fabricate" a lower inner mounting point for the rear camber link. I figured this would be easier than drilling new holes for the arms. This should permit running with less static camber and have it cranked on more quickly in a corner.
Is your train of thought the same as mine?
Yep exactly the same reasoning. I initially tried drilling some new holes in the inner bulkhead, but this proved to not be optimal as there is insufficient space and the mounting points were weak. An inner bulkhead mount would be OK, but you would likely have to move the actual mounting point outwards a little which would shorten the linkage length. You want a long and high rear camber linkage.

I am likely going to make one out of some aluminium which will attach to the hubs and also allow a slightly longer linkage length. Roll centre can be tuned with shims.

Another possibility is to purchase the rear Mugen MTX3 assembly complete and try to fit it. I know the rears of the MTX2 and V1R were compatible.
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Old 12-31-2002, 05:28 PM   #5554
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Quote:
Originally posted by nova racer
I think that the best way would be to make a bracket that fits on the bulk heat becayst you dont want to add any unsprung weight to the hubs
I already have super light (and fragile ) pivot balls so a few grams wont bother me much. I think the handling difference is worth it.

Remember this was a localised experiment at my particular track. As you have stated Nova it wont work at every track type.

My track has 3 metre wide lanes with 12 wide hairpins and 2 long sweepers. Straight length is around 45 metres and the track is very fast. I run 14 degrees caster normally!
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Old 12-31-2002, 05:48 PM   #5555
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Quote:
Originally posted by AMGRacer
Happy New Year! Well let me explain my reasoning a little more.

Firstly I have been playing with my electric car rear camber linkages a fair bit . . . . . . . .<SNIP>

I took two body posts whose holes I noticed lined up almost exactly with the two holes in the rear hub. So I drilled out the body post holes to 2.5mm and attached them to the hub with two machine threaded 3mm screws. Then I cut down the body post to the desired length and drilled another 2.5mm hole into the end of it. I rotated the rear camber linkage outer attachment point 90 degrees to face down and to screw into the top of the body post.
Hmmm, yes, it looks like we are on the same train of thought.

It looks like your method is a lot quicker than mine and therefore more appropriate for an "experiment". Your method will also allow you to, say, add some shims to trial even larger link angles.
I was going to bolt a 90 bracket to the bulkhead with multiple holes for the inner mount, and then move the link to mount on the front side of the hub where it will line up with the new inner bracket.

I also have a large fast track in mind for this (Lilydale) and was hoping to see some improvements in "change of direction" handling. The MTX-3's seem to be very good in this area, and while I don't have drawings of their rear end geometry, the steeply angled rear links are an obvious difference.
This is also a lot cheeper than buying an MTX-3.


Have you noticed an improvement in this transition handling?
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Old 12-31-2002, 06:30 PM   #5556
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Originally posted by Taylor-Racing
Hmmm, yes, it looks like we are on the same train of thought.

It looks like your method is a lot quicker than mine and therefore more appropriate for an "experiment". Your method will also allow you to, say, add some shims to trial even larger link angles.
I was going to bolt a 90 bracket to the bulkhead with multiple holes for the inner mount, and then move the link to mount on the front side of the hub where it will line up with the new inner bracket.

I also have a large fast track in mind for this (Lilydale) and was hoping to see some improvements in "change of direction" handling. The MTX-3's seem to be very good in this area, and while I don't have drawings of their rear end geometry, the steeply angled rear links are an obvious difference.
This is also a lot cheeper than buying an MTX-3.


Have you noticed an improvement in this transition handling?
Well interesting you bring that last point up. I installed the k factory tank and top deck a long time ago along with low engine mounts. Back then I did not notice any difference, but also I was not a very experienced racer at the time.

I have done the following recently:

1. Lowered the receiver holder around 10-12mm so it now is in line with the bottom chassis.
2. Lowered the steering servo so it is in line with the bottom chassis.
3. Lowered the steering servo around 3-4mm.

All the above can be done with plastic hardware supplied on the parts trees for the V1R.

4. Used the kawahara mounts and flywheel.
5. Going to reinstall the k factory tank and top deck.

Now that I have done this a second time around I actually have now noticed a difference to the cars handling in transitions. In fact I was racing a guy yesterday with a stock electric motor in a quite dialled XRAY and I actually outdrove him through some of the twisty sections of the track. My car carried superior corner speed. I was very surprised with this result myself as electrics normally carry very good corner speeds!

Another must for the V1R is to use fantom springs and shock pistons. I like the fantom yellows and greens for springs. This will make your car come alive.
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Old 12-31-2002, 06:51 PM   #5557
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Quote:
AMGRacer said:
Yep exactly the same reasoning. I initially tried drilling some new holes in the inner bulkhead, but this proved to not be optimal as there is insufficient space and the mounting points were weak. An inner bulkhead mount would be OK, but you would likely have to move the actual mounting point outwards a little which would shorten the linkage length. You want a long and high rear camber linkage.
Yes, my inner 90 bracket will be above and slightly forward of the upstop screw hole. There is a nice flat area on the inside of the bulkhead to allow a washer under the bolt head to spread the load a bit and it shouldn't interfear with anything. I plan to dremel the ribs off the outside of the bulkhead to get the inner mount inwards as far as possible. Overall I expect the the link will be slightly longer than stock given that it is mounted about 15mm further forward - about a 30 angle to the dogbone in plan view.

As a side benefit/annoyance, it means I'll have to change from the K-Factory rear bar since it will get in the way . . well it made getting the spurs off difficult, anyway. I'm looking to "adapt" an old Neo blade bar set up which should make for faster adjustments.

Quote:
Another possibility is to purchase the rear Mugen MTX3 assembly complete and try to fit it. I know the rears of the MTX2 and V1R were compatible.
Gee, I wonder if it's compatible or maybe do-able. I hadn't thought of this but assumed the MTX-3 would be too "narrow gutted" in the rear, but actually that's not relevant. There is a lot of other stuff that gets bolted up here - diff bearing sizes, cross brace mounting, secondary shaft - dunno.
Actually, the "narrow gutted" MTX-3 may well have comparatively long upper links and this may be more of a contributing factor than either of us had considered.
Now who do we know with both cars that could provide these measurements . . . Manti?
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Old 12-31-2002, 07:02 PM   #5558
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Originally posted by Taylor-Racing
Gee, I wonder if it's compatible or maybe do-able. I hadn't thought of this but assumed the MTX-3 would be too "narrow gutted" in the rear, but actually that's not relevant. There is a lot of other stuff that gets bolted up here - diff bearing sizes, cross brace mounting, secondary shaft - dunno.
Actually, the "narrow gutted" MTX-3 may well have comparatively long upper links and this may be more of a contributing factor than either of us had considered.
Now who do we know with both cars that could provide these measurements . . . Manti?
Manti has promised to look into this for me already Right manti?
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Old 12-31-2002, 07:45 PM   #5559
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Wow, lots of mods and tricks to try on the VoneRR. I've already save this page for future reference. One step further to be able to chase Manti in the track.
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Old 12-31-2002, 07:48 PM   #5560
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Quote:
Originally posted by AMGRacer
Well interesting you bring that last point up. I installed the k factory tank and top deck a long time ago along with low engine mounts. Back then I did not notice any difference, but also I was not a very experienced racer at the time.

I have done the following recently:

1. Lowered the receiver holder around 10-12mm so it now is in line with the bottom chassis.
2. Lowered the steering servo so it is in line with the bottom chassis.
3. Lowered the steering servo around 3-4mm.

All the above can be done with plastic hardware supplied on the parts trees for the V1R.

4. Used the kawahara mounts and flywheel.
5. Going to reinstall the k factory tank and top deck.
Yes, our (my son is the driver) car now also has the reciever about 1mm above the chassis and the throttle servo mounted underneath the top deck also - a similar 1mm clearance, together with the low CG tank.
Our steering servo is mounted underneath as well, but it sounds like yours is lower still. I was concerned with introducing undesirable bump steer characteristics going any lower, but haven't experimented further - yet.
We use the Fantom centax which is extremely grippy but certainly isn't the lightest one around.
Next on the agenda should be a 5 cell AAA pack a la MTX-3. The normal VoneR 5 cell hump pack is a fair bit higher and heavier.

Quote:
Another must for the V1R is to use fantom springs and shock pistons. I like the fantom yellows and greens for springs. This will make your car come alive.
"come alive" I could always live with.
I've not tried these, but have heard the comment before. Again, I would be thinking of the Lilydale track which is somewhat similar to your Brendale, I suspect.
So where do the fantom springs sit in comparison to, say, the VoneR black ones? I presume you mean yellow "front" and green "rear" yeah?
During the latter part of this season we have gone lower in shock oil weight (contrary to the advice of some), even for Lilydale's good traction (F/R 50/45) and this has improved handling. It does seem a little more on edge, but, certainly improved. My overall thinking from here is that going to harder springs, reducing the reliance on bars and maintaining the current oils should see a smoother and "more reactive" car.
Happy to hear comments - either yea or nay.

Manti must be hung over from last night . .

Happy new year to all.
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Old 12-31-2002, 08:01 PM   #5561
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FYI,

Kyosho springs:

Front

1.7 Bright Red [Fantom]
1.8 Yellow
1.9 Pale Green
2.0 Dark Green

1.7 2.5t Gold [VoneRR]
1.7 3.0t Black - kit standard
1.7 3.5t Silver

1.8 4.5t Red [???]
1.9 4.5t Blue


Rear

1.8 Yellow [Fantom]
1.9 Pale Green

1.6 3.5t Gold [VoneRR]
1.6 4.0t Black - kit standard
1.6 4.5t Silver
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Old 12-31-2002, 08:33 PM   #5562
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Quote:
Originally posted by AMGRacer
Manti has promised to look into this for me already Right manti?



YES SIR !!
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Old 12-31-2002, 08:54 PM   #5563
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Here is your answer !
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Old 12-31-2002, 08:55 PM   #5564
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another one shoot
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Old 12-31-2002, 08:56 PM   #5565
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last one ...
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