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Old 07-26-2002, 01:48 AM   #3181
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'Just keep on adjusting the suspension until you get an overall balanced feel. Sometimes theory can screw you up.'

True true...but theory has physics and calculations to back it up, whereas adjusting without onboard electronics to record and measure effects (which don't exist) just gets really really expensive, and prone to error. =)

Anyone else.......?


By the way has anyone ever tried to install the Fantom brake disk on VoneR's?
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Old 07-26-2002, 05:59 AM   #3182
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camber links

well one of the quickest guys (old guy ) at my track runs a trinity and has the links set to the bottom hole. that's enough proof for me. running mugen blacks up front with 30wt
and serpent blue rear with 30wt
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Old 07-26-2002, 07:42 AM   #3183
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Quote:
Originally posted by rbgti
I'VE GOT A QUESTION FOR THE PROS HERE, I'D LIKE AN ANSWER FROM PEOPLE WHO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT....=)

I know that putting the rear camber link on the bottom hole gives a nice aggressive bite on turn in, but, doesn't it ruin the balance of the car?

Just look at the angles on the front suspension. The roll centre on the front is very low, meaning the roll moment is very long. Look at the rear of the car with the camber link on the bottom hole mount, the roll centre is very high, therefore the roll moment is short.

So doesn't this set up upset the balance of the car??? Technically it should. So how would you compensate for this setup? You could use a harder spring up front, but, this still doesn't fix the balance of the car (plus this gives you less steering/grip at the apex). A balanced car like some of the ones I've seen on my track goes WAY faster then any souped-up VoneR I've seen.

Love my VoneR, but this is one of my dislikes about the car, one cannot change the geometry of the front of the car. I love the car's weight balance (placement of components on the chassis), but so far I don't think there is a way of attaining perfect (or as close to) balance when the car is kinetic.

Thank you for your reply...
Lowering the link allows for more consistent body roll when the car is in a corner. It does effect the balance of the car because of the way it rolls - more parallel the link, the more consistent the body roll is. The more angled the link the less roll, but the more the roll of the chassis actually changes in a turn.

Having said that, the lower the link, the more likely you'll want to go for stiffer rear springs. because the amount of body roll is greater when they are parallel.

Catch 22 - Changing the rear link may work, but the balance of the car can been off- BIG TIME! IE. The front would want to roll more/less then the rear. You could compensate this with the different spring rates on the front or rear, but I doubt this would actually make you faster.

Experiment - run the same spring front + rear, and take the car out for a run with the upper link then try the lower link. You should be able to feel and get an idea on how greatly it effects the balance.

These are way way down on my list of tuning (probably just behind cleaning the car )
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Old 07-26-2002, 08:02 AM   #3184
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Opps, I forgot to mention other ways around it :

swaybars
weight distribution.

You'll always notice that the fast guys have a well balanced car with equal weight on all 4 wheels. Always aim for this, run similar springs if your tyres and track allows you too - and always run as stiff as you can to eliminate body roll.

I've seen it so many times the newbies to the hobby will run like really soft springs in the rear and stiff up front so they rear end won't spin out. Sure the car probably handles, but the difference between an ordinary car and well balanced car would be to run maybe a softer tyre and go up to a stiffer spring.
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Old 07-26-2002, 09:07 AM   #3185
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Quote:
Originally posted by rbgti
I'VE GOT A QUESTION FOR THE PROS HERE, I'D LIKE AN ANSWER FROM PEOPLE WHO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT....=)
I love questions that start like that because I can stop reading the rest of the post......you can count me out!!!!!
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Old 07-26-2002, 12:49 PM   #3186
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"Opps, I forgot to mention other ways around it :

swaybars
weight distribution.

You'll always notice that the fast guys have a well balanced car with equal weight on all 4 wheels. Always aim for this, run similar springs if your tyres and track allows you too - and always run as stiff as you can to eliminate body roll.

I've seen it so many times the newbies to the hobby will run like really soft springs in the rear and stiff up front so they rear end won't spin out. Sure the car probably handles, but the difference between an ordinary car and well balanced car would be to run maybe a softer tyre and go up to a stiffer spring."

YES, of course having the car perfectly corner weighted(equal on 4 wheels) is great. BUT, it does not affect rolling balance.

Back to the observation of the suspension geometry, no matter where you put the rear camber link, the front suspension will ALWAYS have a longer roll moment. Meaning, the front will ALWAYS want to out roll the rear suspension. If you put the camber link on the bottom hole, yes the rear will roll less, but the difference between the front and the rear will be even greater.

Do you guys see what I'm getting at? The front and the rear are fighting each other when the car is turning. The front can't roll as much as it wants too because the back won't roll as much, and vice versa. Which means that neither end is doing what it is supposed to.

Having said that, wouldn't it be better off to just stick to the upper link position? The rear will roll a bit more, but at least it is as closely balanced to the front roll moment, as possible. Having the link on the bottom is GREAT for turn in, just crazy grip, but, you lose grip at the rest of the turn. It looks great and all, but I don't think that it is the fastest the VoneRs can be. The upper link isn't as aggressive on turn in, yet I find it more consistent throughout the turn.

Thats why alot of ppl put harder springs on the front instead of the rear, to limit the front body roll. By the way I'm not using sway bars right now. I want to tune the suspension as much as I can just by using springs/dampers, before resorting to sway bars(German philosophy, sway bars are a crutch for a badly tuned suspension. No offence to anyone =), but i think it is a true statement).

Moreover, the camber change at full compression for upper or lower link is 1.5 degrees @ upper hub mount, and 1.0 degrees @ the lower hub mount. So regardless where you mount the link, you can minimize the camber change during a turn by changing the link to the hub. I just mentioned this to take camber change out of the disscussion.

Okay I'm all lost now.... You're right FREAKAH, 'Sometimes theory can screw you up.'

Peace
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Old 07-26-2002, 09:52 PM   #3187
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rbgti I have no idea what you are talking about

I would not worry about it too much tho. Use equal springs all around (all gold or all black for example) and use the swaybars. Swaybars allow you to run slightly softer springs than you normally would have to to prevent body roll. Therefore you still get slightly faster weight transfer than a stiffer spring but the inside wheel has less tendency to lift. I like the RR swaybar softest and the gold rear swaybar. Then use around 2-4 neg camber for foams, leave the rear linkage in the stock position, use 50-90wt oil depending on track and adjust caster to suit the conditions. Use rear toe to control the amount of rear grip you require. This is the common theory at our track and all the fast guys here use the same philosophy. I agree with Novarossi try and keep your tires and springs as close as you can front to rear. A large gap indicates another sort of problem, or an incredibly slippery track.
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Old 07-26-2002, 10:07 PM   #3188
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Quote:
Originally posted by AMGRacer
rbgti I have no idea what you are talking about

I would not worry about it too much tho. Use equal springs all around (all gold or all black for example) and use the swaybars. Swaybars allow you to run slightly softer springs than you normally would have to to prevent body roll. Therefore you still get slightly faster weight transfer than a stiffer spring but the inside wheel has less tendency to lift. I like the RR swaybar softest and the gold rear swaybar. Then use around 2-4 neg camber for foams, leave the rear linkage in the stock position, use 50-90wt oil depending on track and adjust caster to suit the conditions. Use rear toe to control the amount of rear grip you require. This is the common theory at our track and all the fast guys here use the same philosophy. I agree with Novarossi try and keep your tires and springs as close as you can front to rear. A large gap indicates another sort of problem, or an incredibly slippery track.
Two words ---------> Right on !
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Old 07-26-2002, 11:33 PM   #3189
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Quote:
Originally posted by Manticore


Two words ---------> Right on !

I 2nd that emotion


I thought it was getting way to technical, I meen are we racing these cars or are we designing these cars
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Old 07-27-2002, 12:27 AM   #3190
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Do the 3 (previous posters)of you ever know what people are talking about? A
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Old 07-27-2002, 12:48 AM   #3191
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Well I tried, only trying to get insight, which helps everybody.

Of course we are racing them, thats why we need to know how to tune every aspect that is tunable, to get the best performance and have a better time racing.

Just wanted to point out an observation of the design of the car.

Oh well.....thanks anyways.

Peace
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Old 07-27-2002, 03:03 AM   #3192
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sydewynder
Do the 3 (previous posters)of you ever know what people are talking about? A
I was trying to know but give up at last !

Last edited by Manticore; 07-27-2002 at 03:23 AM.
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Old 07-27-2002, 03:28 AM   #3193
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Quote:
Originally posted by Manticore


I was trying to know but give up at last !
Better than me....I didn't even try!!!!!!
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Old 07-27-2002, 09:30 AM   #3194
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sydewynder
Do the 3 (previous posters)of you ever know what people are talking about? A

Ummm ................ I Fake it real well
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Old 07-27-2002, 09:38 AM   #3195
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Quote:
Originally posted by rbgti
Well I tried, only trying to get insight, which helps everybody.

Of course we are racing them, thats why we need to know how to tune every aspect that is tunable, to get the best performance and have a better time racing.

Just wanted to point out an observation of the design of the car.

Oh well.....thanks anyways.

Peace
You made a good point

But, most of us who have this car think its a good design,
A better idea would have a rear upper control arm that is simular in design like the front.
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