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Old 05-15-2007, 11:29 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gansei
1) 1/10 GP front/rear general ride height setup in 5 minutes race

2) 1/10 GP front/rear general ride height setup in 30~45 minutes race.

3) to avoid traction roll, how can ride height change?
Dude, I thought you are ready for FEMCA ??? Just drive and give me at least 18 laps/5 mins. Remember, I put a bet on you !!! ( j/k )

OK, seriously now ... : Don't worry so much for traction roll. G4S & V1RRR has less tendency to traction roll in JITC track even in high grip condition. MTX4 and 720 maybe, but not so crazy like MTX3 and 710, they are traction rollers. Be self confidence, I know you are better than average drivers.
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Old 05-16-2007, 12:27 AM   #32
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Gansei.
You really have created some interest very quickly with this thread.
There are lots of good points that have been pointed out here that have obviously worked for some. Some very interesting ones too.

I'm also very interested to see that some have found turning to softer sus' springs helped. Yet others have noted the opposite. Although only marginal help when going stiffer, if at all.
The point touched upon earlier concerning stiffer springs makes the car reacts quicker I think has some merit in that it allows the same thing to happen (grip roll) but quicker.

That same reason only opposite could be true why others have noted that going softer on springing helps.............. traction roll still occurs, but slower, maybe more controllable.
Because it takes longer to get to the point the car actually flips, this could be the reason people feel it helps.
One thing is for sure.
We are basically talking leverage here. If there is applied enough cornering force against the amount of grip (friction) generated by the outside tires (the fulcrum) the car will flip!
In this respect it does not matter if you use softer or harder springing.

What can help to prevent this occuring?
Lowering the centre of gravity will help. But if the amount of grip generated at the wheel is suficient and the cornering force is enough to overcome this, you will still grip roll !
Lowering the roll centre will also help, but as above, if there is enough grip being generated, the car will still G roll ! Stiffer roll bars, suspension limiters and changing akerman. (Sorry about the spelling guys )

While all the things mentioned will help to find out how much grip is being generated at the tire, ultimately what we may need to do is actually take grip away from the outside tire. The car needs to overcome the friction felt at the fulcrum point to stop the car from flipping.......traction rolling.
Don't get me wrong. The remedies mentioned may well succeed in getting rid of traction rolling by overcoming the amount of grip at the outside wheel. Where the amount of grip is already close to being met and exceeded at max cornering force.

Tires ! ......Tires, Tires ,Tires. Loosing grip, taking away the grip generated here will get rid of traction roll.
Harder shore,....speaks for itself.
Less width,...... I don't just mean making a 26mm wheel into a 22mm wheel. But cutting the foam at the edges more. Rather then just round them off slightly, takeaway the ability for the tire to roll over by chamfering the foam aggressively inward and also create a smaller contact patch with the track.
Smaller diameter tires....speaks again for itself.
Use of the stiffest tire rims available. GQ's I think are the stiffest. ( )Will help.
Stiffening up the outer side of the foam on the tire. Not just the tire wall but also the part radiused when cutting the tire for size. By using some kind of glue maybe

Ultimately, grooving the tires. Making grooves around the tires circumference. One two or even three grooves here should be enough to take away enough grip at even the most highest of high traction tracks.

Sorry for the long post guys. I hope you found this helpful aswell as interesting.
This is a subject I find interesting because this does not happen in full scale motorsports.
So no real help there from my experience. It's kind of unique to this game.
But the rules for getting rid of roll still apply. Or making the grip roll more controlable by letting the car roll more....... very interesting idea.

So in short.
Try all of these fixes people have put here. They all must work as they would not have put them down here if they hadn't. Some more then others but all have their limits. And if this limit is exceeded by the tires grip, and the car still flips. You must remove grip from the car and the tire as outlined above.

I hope I have not board you all with all this.....nothing else interesting to do at work.

Good posts everyone on the subject. Good to see people's thoughts and experiences coming together to help people.

Have fun all.

Menace
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Old 05-16-2007, 12:49 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcos.J
he didnt state that it was asphalt either
Gansei races onroad nitro.

Also, DJ has been a finalist at the WinterNats where everyone has traction roll issues so I'm sure he knows a thing or two about avoiding traction roll.
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Old 05-16-2007, 01:09 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcos.J
more roll you have the more traction roll you will get , thats why in carpet foam the cars are stiff as shi%
Good luck setting up your car; you will need it...
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Old 05-16-2007, 01:14 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asw7576
Dude, I thought you are ready for FEMCA ??? Just drive and give me at least 18 laps/5 mins. Remember, I put a bet on you !!! ( j/k )

OK, seriously now ... : Don't worry so much for traction roll. G4S & V1RRR has less tendency to traction roll in JITC track even in high grip condition. MTX4 and 720 maybe, but not so crazy like MTX3 and 710, they are traction rollers. Be self confidence, I know you are better than average drivers.
how much betting money with Yung Yung?

i must negotiate with Yung Yung about bet money share ^^

it is a joke!!
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Old 05-16-2007, 02:26 AM   #36
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you guys are very lucky to experience traction roll. fankly speaking, I never have a traction roll before regardless of what tyre with the lowest shore I use in the past. Most of the time I have understeer problem especially if you are coming to the corner with higher speed.
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Old 05-16-2007, 02:51 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by dj apolaro
To be honest I think that stiffening the car is bad thing for traction roll inssues and that is were most people go wrong. the car flips because the suspension is so hard that the chassis can not roll and instead just flips. you need more chassis roll to help the traction roll issue. IMO you can make the car soften or I like to take off a sway bar, most of the time the front. the harder tires and roll center postition is also key and yes you do want to take traction away fron the front to help.

This is interesting to note .
I will put it in my note book for future problem solving.
Coming from u this is not heresay but fact.

Would this apply to the front end more so than i am thinking rear end ??Ok

just that we generally soften when looking for traction on low-med traction tracks.I understand stiffening the car makes it react faster which in a way is related to more traction in order for it to react faster.
i guess its how u look at the problem you are having.
intersting though.
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Old 05-16-2007, 03:20 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gansei
how much betting money with Yung Yung?

i must negotiate with Yung Yung about bet money share ^^

it is a joke!!
OMG...... Yung2 get 17 laps easy. Remember, 18 laps is your target considering top 10 Indonesian are getting 18 laps.

BTW, I just got back from JITC circuit today to buy Mecamo fuel. I need that for engine break in tommorow.

Good News : Don't worry about grip. The grip should be about right.

Bad News : Rains......... lately Jakarta have rains almost on daily basis for 20 minutes to 1 hour period. Sometimes heavy rains, but most of the time is showers. When rains are put into equations, the grip is lost.

Jakarta weather during FEMCA :
Attached Thumbnails
Traction Roll ?-weather.jpg  
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Old 05-16-2007, 05:23 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wad
Good luck setting up your car; you will need it...
mine is set up great
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Old 05-16-2007, 05:28 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sow&Steady
Gansei races onroad nitro.

Also, DJ has been a finalist at the WinterNats where everyone has traction roll issues so I'm sure he knows a thing or two about avoiding traction roll.
what up Sow any word on InitialD?? is he still MIA???
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Old 05-16-2007, 06:11 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asw7576
OMG...... Yung2 get 17 laps easy. Remember, 18 laps is your target considering top 10 Indonesian are getting 18 laps.

BTW, I just got back from JITC circuit today to buy Mecamo fuel. I need that for engine break in tommorow.

Good News : Don't worry about grip. The grip should be about right.

Bad News : Rains......... lately Jakarta have rains almost on daily basis for 20 minutes to 1 hour period. Sometimes heavy rains, but most of the time is showers. When rains are put into equations, the grip is lost.

Jakarta weather during FEMCA :
mecamo fuel is easily get rust and carbon.

take a care in break-in PLUS 2 engine!!
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Old 05-16-2007, 11:58 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcos.J
what up Sow any word on InitialD?? is he still MIA???
Ya man, MIA ... really don't what he is up to but the racers I know over there tells me that he hangs around. Just looks like he's going online these days.
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Old 05-16-2007, 12:22 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razzor
This is interesting to note .
I will put it in my note book for future problem solving.
Coming from u this is not heresay but fact.

Would this apply to the front end more so than i am thinking rear end ??Ok

just that we generally soften when looking for traction on low-med traction tracks.I understand stiffening the car makes it react faster which in a way is related to more traction in order for it to react faster.
i guess its how u look at the problem you are having.
intersting though.
I personally try different things, as every track is different. I do not always soften the springs and the oil. If I go with a softer spring I might give a heavier oil, maybe go from a 30 to 35 or 35 to 40. I like to disconnect my front sway bar first. This helps the chassis roll instead of the car. Ultimately you want to take traction away fron the grip wheel. So the harder tire is key. So I might go to a harder tire in front and not true the edges round. leave them straight = less side bite. In the rear I will try to soften the car, but bring the shock up some.

Hope this helps. Remember these are just some ideas. There are more things that can be done. glue tires, cut inner part away, etc.

DJ Apolaro
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Old 05-16-2007, 01:11 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dj apolaro
I personally try different things, as every track is different. I do not always soften the springs and the oil. If I go with a softer spring I might give a heavier oil, maybe go from a 30 to 35 or 35 to 40. I like to disconnect my front sway bar first. This helps the chassis roll instead of the car. Ultimately you want to take traction away fron the grip wheel. So the harder tire is key. So I might go to a harder tire in front and not true the edges round. leave them straight = less side bite. In the rear I will try to soften the car, but bring the shock up some.

Hope this helps. Remember these are just some ideas. There are more things that can be done. glue tires, cut inner part away, etc.

DJ Apolaro
Noted DJ
some more notes for the pit book.
Its just awesome to have info that you can go and play around with to see what the results are.
I do understand that there are variables that can effect these ideas but with info like this you have solutions that can really help.
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Old 05-16-2007, 01:16 PM   #45
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If anyone wants to experance traction rolling and you are in the eastern US, come to the Great Lakes Challenge in OH. 1/8 scale usually start traction rolling by the first day of heats.............
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