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Old 03-23-2007, 09:01 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by British Menace
I's your idea's on the Placebo effect which is incorrect......................
In respect of your argument concerning tires and if you would notice anything.

You are right in saying you are quite coherent in what you are saying................... just incorrect in your corolation between tire use and the placebo effect you pointed out earlier.

You have good points TomB.

trust me man, this is the perfect example of not only a psychological assumption by the user that there is an improvement (ie user expectancy bias) but also possibly an example of a placebo effect (if someone had the time to conduct a double blind test ) and also essentially of misrepresented information, look at the "durability graph" listed here and you notice there is no values on the Y column, so essentially they show you that the k factory tyre has "more" durability, ok sure, great but how much? how do we not know the Y coloumn is in graduations of say 0.0002 markings or somethign, so essentially a very small difference can be made out to look huge!?

all i'm doing is pointing out the stupid marketing tricks manufacturers use, albiet i'm doing it for the heck of it (so i can place into practice the things i am learning in research methods ) but never the less it's still is true.

also i think you'd also find an element of "placebo effect" in a tyre test. if you told someone "here try these great new grippy foamies" people would invariably drive harder, or at least subconciously try to drive well due to the confidence you instilled into them in telling them the tyres were great. ie tell someone;
"ay look i have these real shythouse tyres which are slippery, tell me what you recon" and they will most probably report back that they are shyt.

anyway, yeah i know, im picking on kfactory...sorry guys, but there isn't a law against being smart enough to figure out bogus/or exagurated claims.
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Old 03-23-2007, 09:10 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by TomB
its funny how manufacturers always say "better wear than X brand" or "20% less wear"

i'd like to know what they are using as a baseline comparison for these figures. seems like every manufacturers tyres are X% better wear than the competition.

guys, it's just another foam tyre brand, lol. unless they have figured out a new recipe for a high denisty, high side bite/forward bite foam, it's the same as the rest.

there is only 3 types of foam currently for tyres;

-japanese foam (high rubber content) kawahara, ATS, Active, speedmind etc
-american foam (traditional foam low rubber content, suited better fro carpet)Jaco
-european foam (a moist dense foam which tends to be heavier than the other two types) ie gandinni

the K factory foam is most prob Euro or Jap.
Kfactory is Jap R same as speedmind, Sato Seiki etc... The rim design is the most important feature of a wheel

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Old 03-23-2007, 09:13 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB
trust me man, this is the perfect example of not only a psychological assumption by the user that there is an improvement (ie user expectancy bias) but also possibly an example of a placebo effect (if someone had the time to conduct a double blind test ) and also essentially of misrepresented information, look at the "durability graph" listed here and you notice there is no values on the Y column, so essentially they show you that the k factory tyre has "more" durability, ok sure, great but how much? how do we not know the Y coloumn is in graduations of say 0.0002 markings or somethign, so essentially a very small difference can be made out to look huge!?

all i'm doing is pointing out the stupid marketing tricks manufacturers use, albiet i'm doing it for the heck of it (so i can place into practice the things i am learning in research methods ) but never the less it's still is true.

also i think you'd also find an element of "placebo effect" in a tyre test. if you told someone "here try these great new grippy foamies" people would invariably drive harder, or at least subconciously try to drive well due to the confidence you instilled into them in telling them the tyres were great. ie tell someone;
"ay look i have these real shythouse tyres which are slippery, tell me what you recon" and they will most probably report back that they are shyt.

anyway, yeah i know, im picking on kfactory...sorry guys, but there isn't a law against being smart enough to figure out bogus/or exagurated claims.
The best example of manufacturers misquotes is the HP rating for .12 engines. 1.62 HP?? Are they out of their mind? The best you could hope for is 1.15 and thats a heavily moded CRF wasp

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Old 03-23-2007, 09:23 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy12345
Kfactory is Jap R same as speedmind, Sato Seiki etc... The rim design is the most important feature of a wheel

Cheers
cool, yep i agree that rim design is key. i started noticing this when i went from the old Gandinni spoke style and then started using the ATS and now the Active tyres. helps alot in driving characteristics when the rim is a bit thicker on the wall supporting the foam (ie, the plastic disk underneath the foam, it's thickness and flexibility affect the handling traits)
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Old 03-23-2007, 09:24 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB
trust me man, this is the perfect example of not only a psychological assumption by the user that there is an improvement (ie user expectancy bias) but also possibly an example of a placebo effect (if someone had the time to conduct a double blind test ) and also essentially of misrepresented information, look at the "durability graph" listed here and you notice there is no values on the Y column, so essentially they show you that the k factory tyre has "more" durability, ok sure, great but how much? how do we not know the Y coloumn is in graduations of say 0.0002 markings or somethign, so essentially a very small difference can be made out to look huge!?

all i'm doing is pointing out the stupid marketing tricks manufacturers use, albiet i'm doing it for the heck of it (so i can place into practice the things i am learning in research methods ) but never the less it's still is true.

also i think you'd also find an element of "placebo effect" in a tyre test. if you told someone "here try these great new grippy foamies" people would invariably drive harder, or at least subconciously try to drive well due to the confidence you instilled into them in telling them the tyres were great. ie tell someone;
"ay look i have these real shythouse tyres which are slippery, tell me what you recon" and they will most probably report back that they are shyt.

anyway, yeah i know, im picking on kfactory...sorry guys, but there isn't a law against being smart enough to figure out bogus/or exagurated claims.
Dude, we all understand what your saying. But this thread is about the tire itself, not the marketing ploys. Who gives a rats ass about the marketing. Marketing has never played a roll in my decisions of tires or anything else for that matter. What does play an important part is my lap times. I did notice that on low to medium grip tracks, these tires perform better by lap time results. Not a plocebo effect there. This might be do to the narrower stance or the material of the rim. Not sure yet, but I did improve my lap times. This is how you judge ALL of your suspension changes. It's rare to actually feel a difference. You need to measure the difference by the clock and lap times. Everyone knows this. If you don't well now you do. I have yet to try these on a high grip track so I can't comment on that as of yet. They are a very good tire for sure. Strong wheel design as well. Definitely worth trying out guys!
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Old 03-23-2007, 10:19 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB
trust me man, this is the perfect example of not only a psychological assumption by the user that there is an improvement (ie user expectancy bias) but also possibly an example of a placebo effect (if someone had the time to conduct a double blind test ) and also essentially of misrepresented information, look at the "durability graph" listed here and you notice there is no values on the Y column, so essentially they show you that the k factory tyre has "more" durability, ok sure, great but how much? how do we not know the Y coloumn is in graduations of say 0.0002 markings or somethign, so essentially a very small difference can be made out to look huge!?

all i'm doing is pointing out the stupid marketing tricks manufacturers use, albiet i'm doing it for the heck of it (so i can place into practice the things i am learning in research methods ) but never the less it's still is true.

also i think you'd also find an element of "placebo effect" in a tyre test. if you told someone "here try these great new grippy foamies" people would invariably drive harder, or at least subconciously try to drive well due to the confidence you instilled into them in telling them the tyres were great. ie tell someone;
"ay look i have these real shythouse tyres which are slippery, tell me what you recon" and they will most probably report back that they are shyt.

anyway, yeah i know, im picking on kfactory...sorry guys, but there isn't a law against being smart enough to figure out bogus/or exagurated claims.
This is true in all marketing strategy, and also known as the bandwagon effect. I like K Factory tires because of the price, they work, and around where I am no one else is really running them. I always try to do the opposite of what every one is doing (if not I would buy a kyosho or a Mugen).
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Old 03-23-2007, 01:35 PM   #37
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Even though it is said that almost all foam tires are made from the same rubber supplier in Japan, there will always exist differences in final product between foam manufacturers because foam tires are ultra sensitive to many factors regarding raw material storage, process and construction of the tire.

The first and most important difference that distinguishes one manufacturer from the other is the period and condition of storage of the raw foam. Some manufacturers store the foam plates at room temperature in their warehouse, and then work on them as orders come in. Others instead, have storage facilities with controlled temperature, light and humidity, where the foams plates are kept to mature for a certain period of time before working on them (just like wine, ham or cheese), and then have preservation time and ambient conditions of finished products based on their experience.

Another difference factor that affects grip is the type of glue used to fix the foam on the rim. The main characteristic that this glue must have is absolute resistance to high temperature, because at high temperature tracks, the friction of the foam over asphalt can make them reach temperatures of around 100ºC.
In theory, the best adhesive to glue foams would be some type of cianoacrilite, but this type of glue has the characteristic of hardening and crystallize the parts in contact, so the tire will not wear in a uniform way, forming small harder steps in the points of gluing, compromising traction and drivability.
Off course each manufacturer has its own “secret” gluing formula which must be resistant and flexible in the point of contact. The best gluing is the one that can’t be seen and felt.

Another difference that can condition the performance of foams is the type of cutting of the foam plates. Three types of cutting are known. Knife cutting, High pressure water cutting and Laser cutting.
Each one of this methods will cause different behavior of the tires, specially the Water cutting method, which consists of a powerful jet of water mixed with and additive, and depending on the additive and its proportion to water, will vary a lot the tire behavior.
Then there is the Knife cutting method in which two high sharp plates turn in circle at high speed cutting the foam plate giving form to the final donuts to be glued on the rims. With this type of cut, the natural characteristic of the foam is kept unaltered, but you can’t modify the behavior, and you get fewer tires out of the plate because of the lesser precision of the cut.
And finally there is the Laser Cut method, that offers absolute precision, but the heat that emanates from the ray tends to dry out the foam causing problems in the gluing stage.

Another difference in the characteristic of the foam tires is obtained by varying the internal diameter of the donut, depending on the desired behavior and wear of the tire. Even though it might seem insignificant, a difference of 1mm change, affects the tire behavior.

Finally the rim, which in the last years is having a very important roll in the development of foam tires. More flexible, so as to have a faster grip of the tire to the track, firmer rims so as to have more slide over the track.....but it depends on the car, some brands work better with flexible rims, others work better with firmer rims. Also you can have rims from the same mould, but made with different materials, and they will render a different behavior of the foam. And finally it is important that the rim be resistant to hits.

To conclude; the variables that can affect the performance of foam tires are so many, that those who sustain that they are all the same, because they are made from the same foam supplier, are wrong big time.

My 2 cents
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Old 03-23-2007, 02:17 PM   #38
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Alfonso ~ As always, your insights are invaluable. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us.
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Old 03-23-2007, 02:36 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afm
Even though it is said that almost all foam tires are made from the same rubber supplier in Japan, there will always exist differences in final product between foam manufacturers because foam tires are ultra sensitive to many factors regarding raw material storage, process and construction of the tire.

The first and most important difference that distinguishes one manufacturer from the other is the period and condition of storage of the raw foam. Some manufacturers store the foam plates at room temperature in their warehouse, and then work on them as orders come in. Others instead, have storage facilities with controlled temperature, light and humidity, where the foams plates are kept to mature for a certain period of time before working on them (just like wine, ham or cheese), and then have preservation time and ambient conditions of finished products based on their experience.

Another difference factor that affects grip is the type of glue used to fix the foam on the rim. The main characteristic that this glue must have is absolute resistance to high temperature, because at high temperature tracks, the friction of the foam over asphalt can make them reach temperatures of around 100ºC.
In theory, the best adhesive to glue foams would be some type of cianoacrilite, but this type of glue has the characteristic of hardening and crystallize the parts in contact, so the tire will not wear in a uniform way, forming small harder steps in the points of gluing, compromising traction and drivability.
Off course each manufacturer has its own “secret” gluing formula which must be resistant and flexible in the point of contact. The best gluing is the one that can’t be seen and felt.

Another difference that can condition the performance of foams is the type of cutting of the foam plates. Three types of cutting are known. Knife cutting, High pressure water cutting and Laser cutting.
Each one of this methods will cause different behavior of the tires, specially the Water cutting method, which consists of a powerful jet of water mixed with and additive, and depending on the additive and its proportion to water, will vary a lot the tire behavior.
Then there is the Knife cutting method in which two high sharp plates turn in circle at high speed cutting the foam plate giving form to the final donuts to be glued on the rims. With this type of cut, the natural characteristic of the foam is kept unaltered, but you can’t modify the behavior, and you get fewer tires out of the plate because of the lesser precision of the cut.
And finally there is the Laser Cut method, that offers absolute precision, but the heat that emanates from the ray tends to dry out the foam causing problems in the gluing stage.

Another difference in the characteristic of the foam tires is obtained by varying the internal diameter of the donut, depending on the desired behavior and wear of the tire. Even though it might seem insignificant, a difference of 1mm change, affects the tire behavior.

Finally the rim, which in the last years is having a very important roll in the development of foam tires. More flexible, so as to have a faster grip of the tire to the track, firmer rims so as to have more slide over the track.....but it depends on the car, some brands work better with flexible rims, others work better with firmer rims. Also you can have rims from the same mould, but made with different materials, and they will render a different behavior of the foam. And finally it is important that the rim be resistant to hits.

To conclude; the variables that can affect the performance of foam tires are so many, that those who sustain that they are all the same, because they are made from the same foam supplier, are wrong big time.

My 2 cents
AFM
Dude, thankyou for your insight. I don't know how you retain sooooo much information in regards to our hobby, it's just mind boggling. It's funny because I know a lot of this stuff, (not nearly as much as you) but the way you write is finaminal.(SP)?

Not sure what AFM stands for as I thought of a lot of things, but in this and most cases, it should stand for Another Fantastic Message. from the Always Finaminal Master! Yes everyone I am a dork! But it's all cool. Thanks again AFM!!!! You are the MAN!!!!!!!!
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Old 03-23-2007, 03:41 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpentd
Dude, thankyou for your insight. I don't know how you retain sooooo much information in regards to our hobby, it's just mind boggling. It's funny because I know a lot of this stuff, (not nearly as much as you) but the way you write is finaminal.(SP)?

Not sure what AFM stands for as I thought of a lot of things, but in this and most cases, it should stand for Another Fantastic Message. from the Always Finaminal Master! Yes everyone I am a dork! But it's all cool. Thanks again AFM!!!! You are the MAN!!!!!!!!
IT stands for Alfonso Flores Mazzini,

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Old 03-23-2007, 05:50 PM   #41
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Thank you guys...Rainer, Serpentd, Andy....we must demetify this hobby and share the knowledge...Its the only way to make it bigger and atract more newbies and keep the ones in it....I've seen so many people go away because nobody gave them help.....more competitive knowledgable drivers more fun...jejejejeje

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Old 03-23-2007, 07:36 PM   #42
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I maintain that while all the foam is the same there are definately differences due to other factors such as wheel diameter, offset, and stiffness, inner diameter of the donuts, and age of the rubber.
As long as the rubber is stored in an environment that is out of direct sunlight and is relatively consistent, there is no need for special "curing" conditions. The buns do not begin to outgas in any appreciable amount until the skin is removed. Once the skin is removed it is only a matter of days until the tires are complete. It is the nature of this and all foam rubber to shrink and harden as the gas trapped in the cells escapes. There is nothing that can be done to prevent this process. To try would be fruitless since once the tire is completed it will be stored in an endless number of different environments anyway.
With regard to cutting, most waterjet cutting of foam is straight water only and does not require abrasives. Waterjet cutting keeps the foam cool (unlike blade cutting) and is the most consistent form of cutting. The ratio of abrasive to water is irrelevant even if you do cut with abrasive. It will have no effect on the performance of the tire. I have never seen anyone cut foam with a laser with any success.
Cyanoacrylate glue is the most common means to bond the rubber to the wheels. As long as you get good coverage with the adhesive, you won't have any issues.
I'm not looking to contradict anyone...just trying to clarify things from the perspective of someone who has been doing this for a living for about 17 years.
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Old 03-23-2007, 08:58 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Rimer
I maintain that while all the foam is the same there are definately differences due to other factors such as wheel diameter, offset, and stiffness, inner diameter of the donuts, and age of the rubber.
As long as the rubber is stored in an environment that is out of direct sunlight and is relatively consistent, there is no need for special "curing" conditions. The buns do not begin to outgas in any appreciable amount until the skin is removed. Once the skin is removed it is only a matter of days until the tires are complete. It is the nature of this and all foam rubber to shrink and harden as the gas trapped in the cells escapes. There is nothing that can be done to prevent this process. To try would be fruitless since once the tire is completed it will be stored in an endless number of different environments anyway.
With regard to cutting, most waterjet cutting of foam is straight water only and does not require abrasives. Waterjet cutting keeps the foam cool (unlike blade cutting) and is the most consistent form of cutting. The ratio of abrasive to water is irrelevant even if you do cut with abrasive. It will have no effect on the performance of the tire. I have never seen anyone cut foam with a laser with any success.
Cyanoacrylate glue is the most common means to bond the rubber to the wheels. As long as you get good coverage with the adhesive, you won't have any issues.
I'm not looking to contradict anyone...just trying to clarify things from the perspective of someone who has been doing this for a living for about 17 years.
Thanks for clarifying even more the issue of foam tyre manufacturing. I just gave the general theory on foam "mysteries" and "myths".

You Jack, are giving us your way of doing it, which in no way condradicts what I said.

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Old 03-23-2007, 09:09 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by afm
Thank you guys...Rainer, Serpentd, Andy....we must demetify this hobby and share the knowledge...Its the only way to make it bigger and atract more newbies and keep the ones in it....I've seen so many people go away because nobody gave them help.....more competitive knowledgable drivers more fun...jejejejeje

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Foam Tire KB?

Let me finish the engine one first.
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Old 03-24-2007, 02:15 AM   #45
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howdy guys

on the raceday hobbies website, are the kf tyres' prices in australian$ ????
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