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Old 06-19-2007, 05:16 AM   #91
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Thanks...

But, even though I am not used to Mugen clutches, I still think that if you shim the way Mike explaines, by setting the gap with shimming behind the first bearing, you will bind the clutch when completely assembled.....

So in the end, the article is still not completely clear.....
I've been shimming my clutches just the same way as Mike explains (without knowing it at the time& as one of my fellow racers showed me the same way ) it with my V1RR, G4 and now with my MTX4.
The only time i have had a binding problem is when using the shim that comes with some clutch kits (or most, i dont know) that spaces out the flywheel away from the front motor bearing.
In most cases with the motors i use that shim isn't needed.
Other than that , shimmimg the Mike Swager Way has worked very well for me
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Old 06-19-2007, 07:37 PM   #92
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The touring car gig; 4mm holes in fly wieghts(track has great traction;Port Charlotte) grey clutch shoe. Started at .2 mm end play with the Mugen super hard spring. The car was very easy to drive and slipping the clutch off of the corner. Increased end play for a harder hit and ended up at .4 for qualifiers and started the main at .3 to account for wear. Remember to recheck clutch bell to disc clearance offten to acount for wear. MH7 you can private message me if you want to start a pissin match at your will. I dont want to clog this thread with your ASSumptions or your latest rumors. People are spending their time on this site to gain knowlege and excel at this hobby. Like the fellow from Spain says "cheers".
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Old 06-19-2007, 08:35 PM   #93
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LMGDAO
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Old 06-20-2007, 03:49 AM   #94
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MH7 you can private message me if you want to start a pissin match at your will. I dont want to clog this thread with your ASSumptions or your latest rumors. People are spending their time on this site to gain knowlege and excel at this hobby. Like the fellow from Spain says "cheers".
Mugenderw..

It is in no way an assumption from me, I checked with a friend of mine who drives mugen cars for years now, starting with the Sting, MRX2, 3 and now the 4.....
Hell, we both driven the Quattro!

In basic, the Mugen clutch is the same as the original centax invented by serpent.
So, yes you are able to bind the clutch when totally assembled, if you put in to many shims, in front of the thrustbearing, THAT is what I am saying, this point is not clear from Mike's article.....
Setting the correct gap, needs to be done by shimming in front of the thrustbearing....

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Increased end play for a harder hit and ended up at .4 for qualifiers
Actually, if you have an endplay of 0.4mm, you atleast have a gap of 0.4mm also, otherwise it is impossible to have this amount of endplay.......
For .21 engine it is not uncommon to have a gap of atleast 0.7mm, also for Mugen clutches........
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Old 06-20-2007, 06:23 AM   #95
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I suppose that is more correct to start shimming first infront of the front bearing, in order to set the clutch gap. The reference, 0 point, is when the bell touches the shoe and then you set how far the shoe will travel to meet the bell. Therefore you put the shims infront of the front bearing. Then you start shimming behind the rear bearing to raise the bell not touching the shoe and set the end play. By following this method, you can achieve the same gap every time you built it, even after the shoe has worn out.
However, if you follow the method in the article you will have 0.5 clutch gap and 0.3 end play, if your shoe is new. When you will rebuild it the next time and the shoe has worn out, the clutch gap will be greater.
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Old 06-20-2007, 09:47 AM   #96
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I suppose that is more correct to start shimming first infront of the front bearing, in order to set the clutch gap. The reference, 0 point, is when the bell touches the shoe and then you set how far the shoe will travel to meet the bell. Therefore you put the shims infront of the front bearing. Then you start shimming behind the rear bearing to raise the bell not touching the shoe and set the end play. By following this method, you can achieve the same gap every time you built it, even after the shoe has worn out.
However, if you follow the method in the article you will have 0.5 clutch gap and 0.3 end play, if your shoe is new. When you will rebuild it the next time and the shoe has worn out, the clutch gap will be greater.
Spot on and well described.
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Old 06-20-2007, 09:58 AM   #97
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I couldn't have done it better...

and this is my point, in the end, after re-shimming due to wear of the clutch shoe, when you then put in a new shoe, and don't take out the "front" shims, You will bind the clutch when assembling, if you follow Mike's article...... which is normal offcourse, but when I make this statement, I get flamed....

Well, off I go, to the 3hobby.net forum, where people do understand how stuff works.....
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Old 06-20-2007, 10:53 AM   #98
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As the clutch shoe wears you will find yourself removing a shim from the crankshaft side and reinstalling that same shim on the thust bearing. So as the disc wears you should not have to add or subtract any of the shims. If your running an aluminum clutch bell this is no longer true as the contact surface will wear at a much higher rate and you will have to compensate for this loss of material. I use clutch shoes from Mugen and from disc to disc I may have to add or subtract one .1mm shim from the shim stack when replacing a worn disc. Considering the material and changes in the atmosphere I find this a more than exceptable tolerance for a toy car part. As far as the stack up height. If your that stuck on an exact number then the normall wear that takes place out on the track is going to drive you nuts. The one shim thats added to the rear that no longer allows the clutch bell to not touch the shoe can be added into the end play or just ignored. I use one of the .05mm shims to keep this as low as possible and let it eat. So if I set my end play at .3mm and its true measurement is really .326987584mm when measured on a $150,000.00 C.M.M. I think I can live with this inaccurace, its a toy car man. We are not trying to control gap and end play seperately. The larger the gap the higher the rpm and the harder the disc slams into the clutch bell, the narrower the gap the lower the rpm and the disc hits the bell softer.
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Old 08-22-2007, 07:20 AM   #99
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Old 08-22-2007, 09:57 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by MugenDrew View Post
As the clutch shoe wears you will find yourself removing a shim from the crankshaft side and reinstalling that same shim on the thust bearing. So as the disc wears you should not have to add or subtract any of the shims. If your running an aluminum clutch bell this is no longer true as the contact surface will wear at a much higher rate and you will have to compensate for this loss of material. I use clutch shoes from Mugen and from disc to disc I may have to add or subtract one .1mm shim from the shim stack when replacing a worn disc. Considering the material and changes in the atmosphere I find this a more than exceptable tolerance for a toy car part. As far as the stack up height. If your that stuck on an exact number then the normall wear that takes place out on the track is going to drive you nuts. The one shim thats added to the rear that no longer allows the clutch bell to not touch the shoe can be added into the end play or just ignored. I use one of the .05mm shims to keep this as low as possible and let it eat. So if I set my end play at .3mm and its true measurement is really .326987584mm when measured on a $150,000.00 C.M.M. I think I can live with this inaccurace, its a toy car man. We are not trying to control gap and end play seperately. The larger the gap the higher the rpm and the harder the disc slams into the clutch bell, the narrower the gap the lower the rpm and the disc hits the bell softer.
I have the same experience.... once you get the endplay and gap right, all you are doing is moving a shim from the crank side to the nut side.

I set the total endplay first from the nut side, then the final gap is either equal to the endplay or ~0.1mm less- depending on where the clutchbell no longer hits the shoe. Sometimes it is exactly equal to the endplay or less..... every shoe is different by a touch.

...and someone mentioned Mugen has two bearings on the inside?? wrong. I've setup Mugen, Serpent and Kyosho clutches exactly the way I described..... the method works on all of them.

Calipers don't cut it here guy's..... you need a clutch gapping tool
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Old 08-22-2007, 11:20 AM   #101
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...and someone mentioned Mugen has two bearings on the inside?? wrong. I've setup Mugen, Serpent and Kyosho clutches exactly the way I described..... the method works on all of them.
In 1/10th sedan, MTX-4 has two bearings on the inside, RRR has one.
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Old 08-22-2007, 11:29 AM   #102
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In 1/10th sedan, MTX-4 has two bearings on the inside, RRR has one.

Don't have a MTX-4, so you got me there. I was talking about the "real" cars
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Old 08-22-2007, 08:20 PM   #103
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Don't have a MTX-4, so you got me there. I was talking about the "real" cars

Guys i just like to share if i understand the centex system right. Right me if i'm wrong.
When setting up a clutch, basicly i just set the bell 0.1mm off from shoe by install shim behind the inner bearing ( this is my default gap setting) then i set the endplay 0.1 ~ 0.4mm measure using filler guage or clutch tool. (0.4 is my preferable endplay because my car feel much controllable ). When it complete assemble i can push and pull the bell and "feel" the 0.4mm gap . Whereby if i set it 0.1, the bell almost bind and no gap "feeling" but the bell is still free spinning because of the 0.1 clutch gap.

And kind of combination on the clutch spring preload. Tighten it the shoe will need much torque to reach the bell and loosen it the shoe will need less torque to reach the bell. Then when the shoe travel to the bell the bell will then been push ( "travel" ) as the endplay gap allowed. In my case 0.4mm.
In my experience and drive feeling i prefer 0.1mm clutch gap and 0.4 endplay.

But practically how should i adjust this base on track layout and how should i set the centex to gain better fuel millage. Any suggestion.
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Old 08-23-2007, 03:55 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by esham View Post

Guys i just like to share if i understand the centex system right. Right me if i'm wrong.
When setting up a clutch, basicly i just set the bell 0.1mm off from shoe by install shim behind the inner bearing ( this is my default gap setting) then i set the endplay 0.1 ~ 0.4mm measure using filler guage or clutch tool. (0.4 is my preferable endplay because my car feel much controllable ). When it complete assemble i can push and pull the bell and "feel" the 0.4mm gap . Whereby if i set it 0.1, the bell almost bind and no gap "feeling" but the bell is still free spinning because of the 0.1 clutch gap.

And kind of combination on the clutch spring preload. Tighten it the shoe will need much torque to reach the bell and loosen it the shoe will need less torque to reach the bell. Then when the shoe travel to the bell the bell will then been push ( "travel" ) as the endplay gap allowed. In my case 0.4mm.
In my experience and drive feeling i prefer 0.1mm clutch gap and 0.4 endplay.

But practically how should i adjust this base on track layout and how should i set the centex to gain better fuel millage. Any suggestion.
tighten the nut will be good torque,loosen the nut smoother and easier to drive and better fuel millage but may bog the motor down,
you have to find a balance and what feels good for you.
this is one of the things i love about nitro racing.motor and clutch setup.
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Old 08-23-2007, 04:31 AM   #105
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To add to the subject i have been using this method suggested by dennis Richey for setting up the clutch on the G4S.
I would think it applies to other centax clutches as well as they are the same in principle.

http://www.kfactoryracing.com/expert...24130345-74975
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