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Old 01-26-2007, 12:44 PM   #76
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Hi Ron,

If you don't mind, I've come up with a few more questions:

1. At what temperature should the fuel be stored?
2. What are some of the consequences of storing the fuel at temperatures outside of this range? i.e. higher or lower; How about refrigerated?
3. What's the shelf life of the fuel once it's been opened? Is there some point at which it's just best to buy a new batch?
4. How long can the fuel be stored unopened?
5. Some people route their fuel lines over the pipe and around the engine. Is this a bad idea or does it really matter?
6. Some people have stated that its a bad idea to switch from running a higher nitro percentage to a lower nitro percentage, but its okay to switch from a lower to higher nitro percentage. What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks!
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Old 01-26-2007, 01:18 PM   #77
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rainer,

in regards to rapping the fuel line around the engine, that has no effect on the fuel. there is no fuel running through that line, that is just exhaust coming from the pipe which provides the pressure to "pump" the fuel through that gas tank, thus into the carb of the engine. depending on the quality of the fuel tank and the power (exhaust force) of the engine, you might want to make this line a tadd longer or add a fuel filter (minus the mesh) to lower the force of the exhaust (stop it from pushing the fuel tank lid open).
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Old 01-26-2007, 01:20 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joemugen
rainer,

in regards to rapping the fuel line around the engine, that has no effect on the fuel. there is no fuel running through that line, that is just exhaust coming from the pipe which provides the pressure to "pump" the fuel through that gas tank, thus into the carb of the engine. depending on the quality of the fuel tank and the power (exhaust force) of the engine, you might want to make this line a tadd longer or add a fuel filter (minus the mesh) to lower the force of the exhaust (stop it from pushing the fuel tank lid open).
Ah Joe ~ I've seen a few cars setup with the fuel line wrapping around the engine like that.
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Old 01-26-2007, 01:40 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmdhawaii
Ah Joe ~ I've seen a few cars setup with the fuel line wrapping around the engine like that.
interesting, i have never seen that
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Old 01-26-2007, 02:53 PM   #80
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I think I know what he's talking about. It's just to get extra fuel onboard the buggy (some in the tank and in the extra tubing). Adds a few more seconds in between pit stops.
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Old 01-26-2007, 04:22 PM   #81
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Werks i have PM med you what my thoughts are : )

Lets get back to fuel talk ..
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Old 01-26-2007, 06:20 PM   #82
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Emptypunzo's Mom, I got your PM. Everything that I'm posting is on a public forum so I have no problem responding to you on that. I have nothing to hide, that's why I'm posting on here. Please be up front and go ahead and post your PM on here. While your at it, please responded to my questions about who you are. No point in hiding things is there?

I'm going to respond to this though:

"So no bad feelings Werks , I know you have a great reputation with your products . And that Werks is a well respected company. That is why im giving you the heads up on making these claims. It wont look good for you and it dosent make friends within the industry..

Peace"

The claims that I made regarding US Nitro being superior to Chinese I'm going to stand behind. This is the results that we have verified in our own testing. Unless you want to come forward and say who you actually are, there is no point in your continuing to disagree with me and/or send me PM's. Bottom line, if you have different test results, give it some credibility and say who you are, what company you are with and what you have found.

Secondly regarding my claim about "us being different than other US fuel companies in that we are one of the only ones that actually makes engines too" being false. I have no idea how you can even question that, it's not a claim, it's the truth. There are 2 other manufacturers in Europe that make engines and fuel, those are RB and Novarossi and Novarossi stopped. There are 0 other companies in the US that make fuel in house and design their own engines.

Regarding you saying that we are not making friends in the industry, well what can I say. I have said nothing negative about or bad-mouthed any competitor or specific brand of product on the market. I'm giving people background info on what WE have found in testing and what led US to use specific components. If other companies or more specifically you do not like me stating this then I'm sorry, guess we're not friends. We have a good reputation in the industry because we are straight shooters, we make the best products possible, we stand behind our products and we support our customers.

Ron
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Old 01-26-2007, 07:44 PM   #83
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Who i am has no bearing on the information i bring to the table, Can you verify who you are ? No. I research this information and bring published web facts , not here say .. If you can bring published, impartial third party information backing your claims then please go ahead..., If you do RnD Like you claim them please publish the certified results...

You made a general claim that Chinese nitro is not as good, well all im doing is defending 90% of companies that use it ...

Anyone can say " Were the best because we use this and its better than 90% of the others etc " .. its just BS frankly ..

Your quote

" Having said that when talking about our Werks "Race Blend" fuel you have to keep in mind that we are quite different than other fuel manufacturers. That difference is that our primary business involves the development and manufacturing of engines, something that none of the other fuel manufacturers do. " This is your statement .. Manufacture and development..

Youre speaking about companies that you know of but you dont know everybody that does this do you .. I know of at least 3 other private companies that do RnD develpment for engines that make fuel..

that is a bold statement ... How do YOU know what other fuel maufacturers do in their RnD ? Have you been to their factories and made notes to back these claims ? Dont get me wrong i appreciate your information but Firstly putting down Chinese nitro and then making statements like the former including stating that my claim to using 99.96 pure nitro questionable .. you are not qualified to make these claims, you havent seen it or read our spec sheets or seen our lab results.... its not going to look good saying stuff like that. There are over 18 nitro plants in China .. 3 of which make exceptional Nitro intended for internal combustion engines. And widely used in the US . Making statements like this about the quality of Chinese nitro being dubious is an attack on peoples business. And in fact if you state that 90% of other fuel maufacturers use chinese nitro so what are you saying about them .. that they make bad fuel ? Youre talking about Byrons, Wildcat, RunnerTime

Fuels that have exceptional reputations.. Not a good look ..

US nitro is more expensive because its made in the US .. thats the only reason not because its better. The chinese have been exploisives and chemichal experts for hundreds of years.. They know what they are doing.

Here is an excerpt from a well read article published a few years ago

The Chinese nitro is still being made in China at a specially constructed plant. It is imported to the US by Wego Chemical Company in NY. It is made by a different process than the Angus (now Dow Chemical as of 2 or 3 years ago) nitro. A test was done on the three nitro products that were available in 1996 and they found the Chinese nitro to be more pure than the Angus nitro, and much more pure than the product that VP was selling at the time. Those results may not hold up now, but they were accurate at the time the products were tested.

Here is the web page for it.

http://www.wediditforlove.com/techtalk4.html

If the chinese were capable of making this quality of nitro back 11 years ago then id say its just gotten better since, and obviously their process being different would be the reason it is purer, this is a stated fact, not words from my mouth..

I noticed you avoided my question about Angus being 98% pure, what is the other 2 % ? Do you know ? Thats 2% of carcenogenic impurities 2% water 2% Pureed Ducks liver ? what ? Stand behind your product please ...

Here is what the Dow site says

You've known ANGUS Chemical Company as the primary manufacturer and marketer of nitroparaffin-based chemicals, supplying chemical intermediates such as nitromethane, AMP-95™ 2-amino-2-methyl-1-propanol, TRIS AMINO™ Tris (Hydroxymethyl) Aminomethane, IPHA I-15, ZOLDINE™ oxazolidines and NiPar Solvents - to name a few.

I looked on their site for the 98 pure racing fuel but i cant find it anymore..

Here is the link

http://www.dow.com/angus/index.htm

So no bad feelings Werks , I know you have a great reputation with your products . And that Werks is a well respected company. That is why im giving you the heads up on making these claims. It wont look good for you and it dosent make friends within the industry..
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Old 01-26-2007, 07:57 PM   #84
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Does Ballytime fuel use chinese nitro, or Angus nitro?
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Old 01-26-2007, 07:58 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rody
Does Ballytime fuel use chinese nitro, or Angus nitro?
As stated above, Angus no longer produces Nitro used for racing.
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Old 01-26-2007, 08:09 PM   #86
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Oooo...getting heated. I'm subscribing to this thread!
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Old 01-26-2007, 08:21 PM   #87
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This is what Rocket Science Racing Fuels says about their Nitro:

Quote:
We use only the highest quality nitro, this is the same nitro used by the NHRA. That's right, the same nitro used in the cars of Kenny Bernstien, Doug Kalitta and John Force is the same nitro used in all of our fuels. Our nitro assays on average at 99.97% pure Nitromethane (the other .03% isn't moisture but other nitroparrifins).
I think it's safe to assume, that all the "Good Fuels" will use the purest Nitro with the least amount of contaminants that are harmful to the engine. Taking special care to avoid contaminating the fuel with any "Pureed Duck liver."

I think we've pretty much exhausted most of the discussion on this topic. Ron's insights into how Werks developed their fuel has been very informative to those of us trying to select a better fuel for our cars. As was stated above, we have to do as much research as we can on each fuel and then pour it into our little fuel tanks and try it - because ultimately, no matter what you pour into, who makes each ingredient or where it comes from, the only thing that really matters is how well it performs out on the track and how well it protects the engine.

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Old 01-26-2007, 10:02 PM   #88
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Emty, thank you for posting your pm. I'm going to go through this point by point.

1) Who i am has no bearing on the information i bring to the table,

**It absolutely does. It lends credibility to what you are saying. Bottom line is, if you have nothing to hide, just like me you should not have a problem saying either who you are or what your "fuel testing" involvement is.

2) Can you verify who you are ?

**Yes, I own the company. If you want, feel free to call me on monday the telephone number is posted on our web site www.werksracing.com. That should be verification enough I would think. Still don't know who you are though!

3) No. I research this information and bring published web facts , not here say ..Anyone can say " Were the best because we use this and its better than 90% of the others etc " .. its just BS frankly ..

**What you are doing is quoting a test that was done in 1996, 11 years ago. That is it. For the rest you are saying the same here say as I'am which is "in your testing xyz worked much better". Problem is a) you can not tell me how it worked much better (I asked). b) You can not tell me what results you saw (again I asked). c) You will not say who you are or if you actually have any involvement in the production, development, testing of any thing rc related let alone fuel related (once again I asked). In my case I do not think any of this is in question is it?

4) You stated:

Your quote
" Having said that when talking about our Werks "Race Blend" fuel you have to keep in mind that we are quite different than other fuel manufacturers. That difference is that our primary business involves the development and manufacturing of engines, something that none of the other fuel manufacturers do. " This is your statement .. Manufacture and development..
Youre speaking about companies that you know of but you dont know everybody that does this do you .. I know of at least 3 other private companies that do RnD develpment for engines that make fuel..

**Great, and I know of none (with the exception of Traxxas) so I guess you (whoever you are) know more about car related companies in the RC industry than I do. Since I personally know most of the competition engine manufacturers, specifically since we were the US importers for a couple of them I congratulate you.

5) that is a bold statement ... How do YOU know what other fuel maufacturers do in their RnD ? Have you been to their factories and made notes to back these claims ?

** I said that we are quite different than other fuel manufacturers because our primary business involves the development and manufacturing of engines. We are an engine company, you might consider it a bold statement but if I'm wrong please tell me of another one in the US that can say the same thing? I would think that if any of them were also making engines we would all know about it!

6) Dont get me wrong i appreciate your information but Firstly putting down Chinese nitro and then making statements like the former including stating that my claim to using 99.96 pure nitro questionable .. you are not qualified to make these claims, you havent seen it or read our spec sheets or seen our lab results.... its not going to look good saying stuff like that.

** Not a problem, I enjoy giving people feedback about what WE have seen in testing which is what I was talking about. Regarding my statement about Chinese nitro purity claim of being 99.96% being questionable, again I'm going to stand by what I said. I've received samples that were supposedly 99.99% pure also, do you believe that? You are right though, I have not seen YOUR spec sheets or seen YOUR lab results predominately because you will not say who YOU are or provide any of YOUR testing results like I have repeatedly asked for.

7) There are over 18 nitro plants in China .. 3 of which make exceptional Nitro intended for internal combustion engines. And widely used in the US . Making statements like this about the quality of Chinese nitro being dubious is an attack on peoples business.

** Great it's nice to hear that there are 18 nitro plants in China, it's also nice to hear that 3 of those 18 make nitro intended for internal combustion engines even though I'm not sure what would be different about nitro from the other plants, level of purity maybe??? I have never said that Chinese nitro is dubious. In a nutshell what I said was that in our testing we found Angus brand nitro to perform better when used as a component in fuel for RC engines. Is this an attack on peoples business? I don't think so, I think that this is a statement of facts based on our on track and dyno testing results. (Again if you have testing results in our application or facts that counter my claim I would invite you to post them).

8) And in fact if you state that 90% of other fuel maufacturers use chinese nitro so what are you saying about them .. that they make bad fuel ? Youre talking about Byrons, Wildcat, RunnerTime

** Lol, I think that it's pretty obvious. I'm saying that some of the other manufacturers choose to use Chinese nitro, we use US made. Nothing more, nothing less. For the rest your jumping to your own conclusion. I will add that I have never, ever singled out any product made by any manufacturer as being bad, in fuel, engines or any other category. Byrons, Morgan make good quality and consistent products. And regarding Runner Time, the owner and his two sons are acquaintances of mine.

9) US nitro is more expensive because its made in the US .. thats the only reason not because its better.

** If you say so. Still don't know what qualifies you to even state this? Read it on a web site maybe?

10) The chinese have been exploisives and chemichal experts for hundreds of years.. They know what they are doing.

** Ya I know, I think that they invented gun powder even though I'm not sure how that is relevant to this discussion.

11) Here is an excerpt from a well read article published a few years ago
The Chinese nitro is still being made in China at a specially constructed plant. It is imported to the US by Wego Chemical Company in NY. It is made by a different process than the Angus (now Dow Chemical as of 2 or 3 years ago) nitro. A test was done on the three nitro products that were available in 1996 and they found the Chinese nitro to be more pure than the Angus nitro, and much more pure than the product that VP was selling at the time. Those results may not hold up now, but they were accurate at the time the products were tested.
Here is the web page for it.
http://www.wediditforlove.com/techtalk4.html

**Again as I mentioned a couple of posts ago you are quoting a test that was supposedly done over 11 years ago! I will also point out that I say supposedly because I still can not find any details of the results anywhere including the site that you linked to. This is similar to me pointing you to a web site that from the 90's that says Pepsi is better than Coke but not telling you why and expecting you to take it as the word of god.

12) If the chinese were capable of making this quality of nitro back 11 years ago then id say its just gotten better since, and obviously their process being different would be the reason it is purer, this is a stated fact, not words from my mouth..

** No it is purely speculation on your part not stated facts, you plainly indicate this by starting off with "id say" that is not a stated fact, that is you saying something.

13) I noticed you avoided my question about Angus being 98% pure, what is the other 2 % ? Do you know ? Thats 2% of carcenogenic impurities 2% water 2% Pureed Ducks liver ? what ? Stand behind your product please ...

** I never avoided your question, what I said previously was and I quote "Also be careful when you are quoting numbers as there are several different grades of nitro available. Again assuming that you are in the fuel business and if you were buying Angus brand nitro from VP you should note that the product sold into the automotive industry is not the same as for industrial use and also includes a dye marker to indicate if the nitro is sensitized. " Notice the part that I underlined?

14) Here is what the Dow site says
You've known ANGUS Chemical Company as the primary manufacturer and marketer of nitroparaffin-based chemicals, supplying chemical intermediates such as nitromethane, AMP-95™ 2-amino-2-methyl-1-propanol, TRIS AMINO™ Tris (Hydroxymethyl) Aminomethane, IPHA I-15, ZOLDINE™ oxazolidines and NiPar Solvents - to name a few.

**Dow Chemicals bought Angus years ago so your point is? Or are you just confirming that they make Nitro because I think that we all know that.

14) I looked on their site for the 98 pure racing fuel but i cant find it anymore..

**Wonder why, maybe because they stopped selling it???? Now go back up and read the part that I underlined. Make sense now, we do not use the product that you are refering to and they used to sell as automotive racing fuel. We use their industrial product, not the same stuff. Why, maybe because we do not buy 5 gallons at a time from the corner hot rod shop!

15) So no bad feelings Werks , I know you have a great reputation with your products . And that Werks is a well respected company. That is why im giving you the heads up on making these claims. It wont look good for you and it dosent make friends within the industry..

**There are no bad feelings on my part either. If you want to mince words, I'm more than happy to do that but come with something a little more concrete than some test that was performed back in the '90's of which there are no specific results available for and a bunch of fluff as right now I think it does not look good for you. In any case, I think our discusion is done.
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Old 01-27-2007, 09:33 AM   #89
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Awesome job once again Werks.

Quick questions...what is the oil content in Werks fuel? Have you seen (or heard of) any performance issues in long term high altitude use? I live in a high altitude city.

A lot of local racers are switching to Werks this season and I may give it a try too. Sidewinder has been great to me...however I would like to try Werks. Never know unless you try right!? I personally love the sealing of the bottle! You will always know the freshness you're getting!
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Old 01-27-2007, 09:59 AM   #90
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At least you can get some. I have to convince one of the local hobby stores to order some for me.
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