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Old 05-17-2007, 06:53 AM   #181
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Last year at Mentor I ran the rear rubber on the front. It had massive steering compared to 32 front. For example with 32 fronts I ran no front swaybar and grey front springs and still did not have enough steering. With the rear rubber at 40 shore I ran white springs and am pretty sure I ran the front swaybar straight up. I probably still had too much steering with the rear rubber front. That was the first time I tried it so 42 or 45 shore rear rubber fronts would probably be a better choice for wear and to get rid of some steering. I am also pretty sure the rear rubber fronts were about a half lap or more faster than 32 fronts. So thats how much of a difference they made.

Back to your question. The rear rubber fronts at 40 shore wore an extreme amount compared to the rear. I think I started with a 4-5 mm split and by the end of the qualifier and warm up I was at about a 9mm split with the front wearing more than the rears. I don't think on a permanent track like toledo the rear rubber fronts will be any advantage since some of the time we run 37 front regular front rubber to take away steering.

There is no ROAR rule for the tires as long as they meet the size guide lines. If everyone runs the rear rubber on the front we all go faster and spend more money. If we all run front rubber we will all go a little slower and spend less money so that is a plus. I do agree that one run tires are not good for the hobby and will also abide by Mark's new guide line.

Paul
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Old 05-17-2007, 07:56 AM   #182
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Not me........................I'll be cheating At least untill the race report is written!
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Old 05-17-2007, 07:58 AM   #183
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Ho yea, we all know that.........
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Old 05-17-2007, 09:29 AM   #184
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Paul, what is your typical front vs rear tire wear when using 'regular' front rubber? For instance; what shore ratings did you run at Cinci, and what was your relative wear? I would not consider running the 'rear fronts' if my split changes as much as yours did. I have to buy my tires and I don't have deep pockets. If the rear rubber fronts wear 4 times faster than conventional, then it makes perfect sense to stay away from them (for me). If they wear at twice the rate (or a little more), then it would not cost me more to run them, as they would then be wearing at nearly the same rate as rear.
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Old 05-17-2007, 09:42 AM   #185
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In Cinci I ran 35's wearing my rears more but others were wearing theirs front more. I think Aaron and Brian were wearing their fronts more or more even front to back. I tend to always wear my rears more since my car is always sideways. I was wearing 2-3mm off the rears in a qualfier and warmup in cinci but I probably wore the most out of everyone there I would imagine. I think don't remember exactly what my split was after a qual but it started at 7 and I think ended around 5 maybe.

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Old 05-17-2007, 11:00 AM   #186
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My car always wears the rears faster than the front's, for some reason the Kyosho car does this, many people that run the car see the same issue. It really doesn't effect the handling until the difference is extreme. The car will get loose when the difference becomes too great, it's only until you are 35-40 minutes into a main with high tire wear. For some reason at Cincinnati in qualfiying my front's were wearing more, but in the main, the rears out wore the fronts considerably. I use to worry about this, but have come to learn that it really doesn't seem to make a bit of difference on the track. I agree with Chicky's commentary on rear/front tires. It's bad for the series.
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Old 05-17-2007, 11:37 AM   #187
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This dilemma really gets my goat. Everyone that doesn't run for BSR and were not able to get these special tires are complaining! I didn't here anybody complaining about the wrap JACO tires that racers have run in the past! Why would this be so detrimental to racing? If somebody makes a particular part that nobody else has and is fast and unavailable to others, will that part be deemed illegal? Why all the whining? There needs to be some inventiveness in the hobby. What about all the bodies that have been raced and not available to racers before. It all comes down to who has what and how good it is! Waaa.......waaa...........waaa---- I believe that any part that is not available to the public should not be used in any competition period. That is what is good for the series!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 05-17-2007, 11:39 AM   #188
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In Cincy had a similar issue with fronts wearing faster than the rears like Aaron. In qualifying I would start around 74 rear 67 front. After warm up and qualifier (about 8 minutes) I was wearing 1mm in the rear and 1.75mm in the front. My wear seemed not as bad as Paul's or Aaron's ut maybe going sideways doesn't help Paul

In Ft Myers and Toledo (the only other places I have run the Mugen car) the wear seems to be even front to back. I typically have been getting the same split before and after a run. Maybe it on the driving style too. I think Paul drives a little more aggressive (could by why hes always fast!!!). Aaron seems to be more smooth at times but maybe the car itself for Aaron makes more rear wear as he stated.

Also I run 90% of the time 35's GRP all the way around.....
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Old 05-17-2007, 11:49 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1fastdude
This dilemma really gets my goat. Everyone that doesn't run for BSR and were not able to get these special tires are complaining! I didn't here anybody complaining about the wrap JACO tires that racers have run in the past! Why would this be so detrimental to racing? If somebody makes a particular part that nobody else has and is fast and unavailable to others, will that part be deemed illegal? Why all the whining? There needs to be some inventiveness in the hobby. What about all the bodies that have been raced and not available to racers before. It all comes down to who has what and how good it is! Waaa.......waaa...........waaa
I think it has more to do with they are 5-10 minute tires and if you want to be fast then you have to run them. I dont think it has much to do with who can get them and who can't. I am sure if there was a demand for them John and other companies would make them and they would be available to everyone. For the people who get their tires for free it is a huge cost savings advantage. Imagine Eli, going to a race and having to spend an additional $200 for tires a race plus all your parts and travel expenses. I am not sure you or I would be doing it that for very long. I am not sure I know of any body that is a half lap to a lap faster like these tires are, or a body that lasts one qualifier and you have to put on a new one every run, you proved it last weekend running the Protoform body that no one thought worked anymore. I think you were pretty fast still. It's all about keeping the costs lower.

Paul
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Old 05-17-2007, 12:17 PM   #190
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There are a few elite racers that don't have to pay for expenses, unfortunately I am not one of them! I do pay for my parts, including engines and in my early years I had to buy tires too. Fotunately now I am sponsored by many companies with either a full ride or partial, depending. I understand the cost of this (R/C) hobby to the fullest. I have been racing for 22 years and for the first 1/4 of it had to pay for everything! To be fast in ANYTHING you have to spend money, time and hard work. You usually get out of a hobby, what you put in it. There are many, many racers that are not going to make the "A", no matter how long they race! Hopefully they are having fun and have their own personal goal in the hobby keeping them interested. I however enjoy the competition and have put very much time, money and hard work trying to be as competitive as I can. There are many times at a race that I am unable to get some of the "tricks" or "special items" that other racers have! I wiil either try to get the items or have to make due with the equipment I have. The cost of this hobby are phenomenal, depending on how fast you want to be. Racers will spend what they need to spend to support their habit, no matter what habit that is! Flame - on
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Old 05-17-2007, 12:20 PM   #191
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Not 100 percent sure I should be joining in due to the very small amount of series races I've attended lately, but I'm curious how anyone plans to enforce a ban on running rear rubber on the front, there certainly isn't an obvious difference, it would be in my mind as difficult as singling out the most expensive tire manufacturer and banning their rubber - how do you tell??
And if you are intent on going down the slippery slope of "what's good for racing" will light bodies be banned?? how about aluminum axles or even aluminum or titanium fasteners??
Thought we were racing not running the Mobil economy run - how much good has cost control done for Indy?? you've got iffy teams only running the second week of qualifying to save $$ on the motor lease where 10 years ago you had top line teams being shut out of the show.
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Old 05-17-2007, 12:30 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Davis
Not 100 percent sure I should be joining in due to the very small amount of series races I've attended lately, but I'm curious how anyone plans to enforce a ban on running rear rubber on the front, there certainly isn't an obvious difference, it would be in my mind as difficult as singling out the most expensive tire manufacturer and banning their rubber - how do you tell??
And if you are intent on going down the slippery slope of "what's good for racing" will light bodies be banned?? how about aluminum axles or even aluminum or titanium fasteners??
Thought we were racing not running the Mobil economy run - how much good has cost control done for Indy?? you've got iffy teams only running the second week of qualifying to save $$ on the motor lease where 10 years ago you had top line teams being shut out of the show.
Funny you should mention the banning of light weight bodies in racing. Another body manufacturer is trying to do just that in carpet racing and it will probably happen.

If it were up to me I would run the tires but Mark asked us not to to keep the cost of racing down. I don't have a problem with it as long as everyone does not use them.

Lets use this as an example: If I dont run them and Joe Shmo (he is a real person you know) does not and he is usually 10 seconds behind me at any given track, guess what if he runs them now he is going to beat me or be a lot closer. If I run them and he runs them we are still our same 10 seconds apart but now he is spending a lot more money because the tires only last one run and I am still smiling because I'm kicking his butt and getting tires for free. If you guys want to run them I will to. It does not bother me.

Maybe Mark should get on here and defend his rule because I am just trying to explain what he wants and now I look like the bad guy who does not want it.

Paul
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Old 05-17-2007, 12:54 PM   #193
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Thanks for the input guys! It is good to know what is going on with others..
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Old 05-17-2007, 01:05 PM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicky03
Joe Shmo (he is a real person you know)
Yep! 9th place in the old 1/8 2WD class at the Texas Biggie, 1985.

His best days are behind him, unfortunately.

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Old 05-17-2007, 01:22 PM   #195
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I hope this doesn't turn into heated debate... I just wanted to see where everyone else was on relative tire wear. I'm not sure that the rule will effect everyone the same way. If one has a lot more rear wear(with conventional rubber) than front & gets several runs out of rear-rubber fronts, It seems unfair for that person. I haven't evaluated the relative wear on the 'outlaw' tires yet. If the front wear is as great on my car as Paul experienced, then I wouldn't run them rule or no rule.
I was way down on power(compression all gone) at Cinci and still had more than twice the wear in rear vs front.
One thing for shure, we don't want to piss Mark off. He might quit (like Brian did)!
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