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Old 11-17-2008, 02:44 PM   #3121
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Really struggling with med to low grip tracks with the Kyosho right now. Here is the setup I'm currently running any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Car has a bunch of initial steering but fades on power and rear end of the car wants to step out on power.

Front:
Stock Blue Springs
500 WT shock oil
Stock pistons
Middle hole on tower
roll centers second from highest position
roll bar flat
1mm droop on gauge
caster 10.5
camber 1 degree
oneway and spool both hard to drive
0 degree front toe out
#10 ackerman block
199 mm front width
37 or 40 shore tire
58 to 59 mm diamater


Rear:
Stock Blue Springs
500 WT Shock Oil
Stockt pistons
third down ho shock tower
camber link b position down and low
stock 2mm upper arm height
2.5 mm droop
roll centers 2nd fron lowest
30k rear diff
2.1 rear swaybar
199mm track width
3 mm camber
2.5 degrees of rear toe
61mm tire diameter
37 or 40 shore tires
23 tooth side pulley
stock kyosho clutch setup

Thanks Brad
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Old 11-17-2008, 03:13 PM   #3122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradley70 View Post
Really struggling with med to low grip tracks with the Kyosho right now. Here is the setup I'm currently running any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Car has a bunch of initial steering but fades on power and rear end of the car wants to step out on power.

Front:
Stock Blue Springs
500 WT shock oil
Stock pistons
Middle hole on tower
roll centers second from highest position
roll bar flat
1mm droop on gauge
caster 10.5
camber 1 degree
oneway and spool both hard to drive
0 degree front toe out
#10 ackerman block
199 mm front width
37 or 40 shore tire
58 to 59 mm diamater


Rear:
Stock Blue Springs
500 WT Shock Oil
Stockt pistons
third down ho shock tower
camber link b position down and low
stock 2mm upper arm height
2.5 mm droop
roll centers 2nd fron lowest
30k rear diff
2.1 rear swaybar
199mm track width
3 mm camber
2.5 degrees of rear toe
61mm tire diameter
37 or 40 shore tires
23 tooth side pulley
stock kyosho clutch setup

Thanks Brad
go to 0 droop front 4 droop rear & add more camber to the rear & lower your diff start off with 10,000 at first for a low bite track
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Old 11-17-2008, 03:20 PM   #3123
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Hi Brad, I find the 3 adjustments which make the most difference in low bite tracks are:
1. Rear lower roll centre. B up is the best compromise (Combine this with b up front)
2. Rear upper camber link - upper outer to upper inner
3. Diff 10,000 - 20,000 is a good strating point.
Fine tune with tire combos and dont be afraid to go softer on the front. We have a high speed low bite track close by and we run 40 rears and 37 fronts.
Ric B.
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Old 11-17-2008, 04:05 PM   #3124
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Bartzrc I had a question on your suggestion list!! Right now I'm in the bottom outer or position B on the camber link are you suggesting going to the A postion or lower inner? Do you guys play around much with shock springs, oil or pistons? I'm basically running all stock pistions springs etc. My kyosho is a bucket on low to medium traction compared to the Mugen I got rid of a few months back hoping I can get it to work on med tracion because that is what I run on 90% of the time. Thanks for the help GMartinez!!
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Old 11-17-2008, 04:30 PM   #3125
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My advice is dont listen to any advice unless they explain the reason. Anybody can say "Up the oil weight" or " Increase camber" It all nonsence unless there is justification

If you power on out of the corners (right) the car will lean to the left and load the left outer wheel. When applying the power this wheel is pushing the car past the CofG and trying to spin the car. On low grip tracks it will spin. You need to onload this wheel. THis is done by:

Transfer the power to the opposite side by freeing up the diff.

Increase the toe in

Increase the camber link length

Stiffen the roll bar

Thats a start...

Cheers
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Old 11-17-2008, 04:40 PM   #3126
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Originally Posted by ziggy12345 View Post
My advice is dont listen to any advice unless they explain the reason. Anybody can say "Up the oil weight" or " Increase camber" It all nonsence unless there is justification

If you power on out of the corners (right) the car will lean to the left and load the left outer wheel. When applying the power this wheel is pushing the car past the CofG and trying to spin the car. On low grip tracks it will spin. You need to onload this wheel. THis is done by:

Transfer the power to the opposite side by freeing up the diff.

Increase the toe in

Increase the camber link length

Stiffen the roll bar

Thats a start...

Cheers
How is it nonsense did you actually look at his settings before making your chocie of what is needed I simply looked at his settings & his response to what he replied to his car actually doing. 2.5 rear camber is not enough contact for the rear on a low bite track & in response he is getting a front oversteer by not having enough droop in the rear for weight transfer.
Increasing the toe in which he already has enough is not the answer as you want the car to roll freely into the turns on power to much toe in the rear drags & you lose to much onpower steering on a loose track my 2cents
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Old 11-17-2008, 05:55 PM   #3127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradley70 View Post
Really struggling with med to low grip tracks with the Kyosho right now. Here is the setup I'm currently running any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Car has a bunch of initial steering but fades on power and rear end of the car wants to step out on power.

Front:
Stock Blue Springs
500 WT shock oil
Stock pistons
Middle hole on tower
roll centers second from highest position
roll bar flat
1mm droop on gauge
caster 10.5
camber 1 degree
oneway and spool both hard to drive
0 degree front toe out
#10 ackerman block
199 mm front width
37 or 40 shore tire
58 to 59 mm diamater


Rear:
Stock Blue Springs
500 WT Shock Oil
Stockt pistons
third down ho shock tower
camber link b position down and low
stock 2mm upper arm height
2.5 mm droop
roll centers 2nd fron lowest
30k rear diff
2.1 rear swaybar
199mm track width
3 mm camber
2.5 degrees of rear toe
61mm tire diameter
37 or 40 shore tires
23 tooth side pulley
stock kyosho clutch setup

Thanks Brad
Brad,
I had this same issue a few weeks ago.
What Brand tires are you running? If Jaco , Are they the prisims?
What front steering Knuckles are you running? 0?-1?-2?

Your car having good Initial turn in but fading, has alot to do with the { 10 }
ackerman. I would suggest going to the 11. This will help increase your on power steering.
Running ( 0 ) toe in the front is also contributing to your loss of turning on power.
Also it's going to make the car very nervous in a straight line.

GO to running 1 deg. toe out on each side, This is gonna make the car more stable,and also help the car ( carve ) through the corners.
Go to running ( 2 deg. ) camber in the front.
I also liked the car better with a 197 front track width in low bite conditions
All of these suggestions should help alot with your turn in & on power steering.

As for the rear ( stepping out ) . It is very important to know if you are running Jaco ( prisims ) or not.

Let me Know and I'll help as much as i Can
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Old 11-17-2008, 05:59 PM   #3128
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Thanks everyone for your input!! Gmartinez I have a quick quesiton regarding rear droop!! I currently run 2mm on the hudy droop gauges!! You are suggesting taking away 2mm of droop and going to 4mm on the gauge is that correct?

Mharrison- I primarily run GRP tires either 37 or 40 shore. I have run the prisms on high bite conditions and they worked great for me. During this weekends race I only ran the GRP tire. Steering knuckles are stock so I believe they are zero.
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Old 11-17-2008, 08:08 PM   #3129
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In regards to the rear end issue.
Forgive me for not knowing the ( a,b ,c ) positioning of the rear upper camber links.
I worked with this same problem with Paolo Morganti From Serpent USA. a few weeks ago,asking his opinion of course.

His advise was to make the upper camber link short and down. Furthest down position, but furthest to the outside . And I also added 2mm of shims under the outside of the link.

And also to lower the rear roll center all the way down. .
I ran my REAR DROOP @ 4
Rear camber @ 3
Rear toe @ 2
Rear Diff 20,000K diff
All this With a Solid axle in the front.
You may want to soften your clutch just a little ,This also Can help Alot.

Now if it tightens the car up so much your not rotating enough, Go back up to the 30,000K diff. This is what I had to do for the main.

Hope this helps.
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Old 11-17-2008, 08:39 PM   #3130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradley70 View Post
Thanks everyone for your input!! Gmartinez I have a quick quesiton regarding rear droop!! I currently run 2mm on the hudy droop gauges!! You are suggesting taking away 2mm of droop and going to 4mm on the gauge is that correct?

Mharrison- I primarily run GRP tires either 37 or 40 shore. I have run the prisms on high bite conditions and they worked great for me. During this weekends race I only ran the GRP tire. Steering knuckles are stock so I believe they are zero.
Yes Bradley & +1 on MHarrison's suggestions
keep us posted
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Old 11-17-2008, 08:56 PM   #3131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MHarrison View Post
In regards to the rear end issue.
Forgive me for not knowing the ( a,b ,c ) positioning of the rear upper camber links.
I worked with this same problem with Paolo Morganti From Serpent USA. a few weeks ago,asking his opinion of course.

His advise was to make the upper camber link short and down. Furthest down position, but furthest to the outside . And I also added 2mm of shims under the outside of the link.

And also to lower the rear roll center all the way down. .
I ran my REAR DROOP @ 4
Rear camber @ 3
Rear toe @ 2
Rear Diff 20,000K diff
All this With a Solid axle in the front.
You may want to soften your clutch just a little ,This also Can help Alot.

Now if it tightens the car up so much your not rotating enough, Go back up to the 30,000K diff. This is what I had to do for the main.

Hope this helps.
Anytime you shorten or angle a camber link downward toward the bulkhead, you remove traction. Adding shims under link on the rear hub will enhance the effect while cornering. The car in question does not have enought rear side bite. The car appears to have alot of initial steering because the rear end is too loose(lack of side bite / lateral weight transfer) and is transferring too much weight forward. Reducing the rear droop, as GMartinez suggested would fix the excessive forward weight transfer issue. Making the rear camber link more level and longer (where it connects to the bulkhead) would be the direction to go in. Also, standing up the rear shocks will help keep the rear arms on the ground for more grip. Setting the camber, so that, the tires wear more even will also increase rear traction. You shouldn't need more than 3 degrees rear toe to produce the traction required. I would suggest 10,000 to 20,000 wt diff lube (Kyosho brand, of course ) in the rear diff.

The last word on the subject is to go out and try these things for yourself and see what really works for your particular situation and what doesn't. No two tracks are the same - as are the drivers using them. In fact, the track you always race at, is never the same from race to race. So, just keep wrenching!
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Old 11-18-2008, 06:30 AM   #3132
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KEWdawg,

I thought the same thing you posted about the rear camber links.
UNTILL , I tried What Paolo Had suggested.It Did Increase my rear grip. But still wasn't enough for me to be happy. So I then lowered my roll center. Which is what I suggested to Brad.( doing both )

And I agree totaly with the .. no 2 tracks are the same ...or the driving style. We can only offer suggestions which have worked for us in the past.

Brad, Let us know if any of this has helped.
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Old 11-18-2008, 07:37 AM   #3133
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KEWdawg,

I thought the same thing you posted about the rear camber links.
UNTILL , I tried What Paolo Had suggested.It Did Increase my rear grip. But still wasn't enough for me to be happy. So I then lowered my roll center.
Doing what Paolo suggested on your Kyosho, actually, raised your roll center. Making it harder for the car to transfer weight laterally. Lowering you roll center allows the car to transfer more weight from left to right. It's a matter leverage. A car's geometry is the key factor to how you adjust for roll. Serpent's is quite different from Kyosho's. Set-up boils down to trying to achieve a happy medium between traction, speed and agility. A driver of Paolo's caliber would probably look to use the least amount of traction possible while maintaining the highest amount of corner speed. His suggestions hint at this. But hey, its all driver's preference, right? Go with what you're comfortable with and have fun doing it.
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Old 11-18-2008, 09:56 AM   #3134
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Thanks everyone for there input!! I will try these things out at our next club race!! Kyosho specific when you move the rear camber link down and make it shorter you are taking away traction? I have always run my kyosho in the shortest and furthest down position!! Position B according to the setup sheets!! So moving them up and making the link longer should produce more rear grip hopefully along with lowering my rear hinge pins to the lowest possible location. I just wanna get the car locked in then start to loosen it up if necessary!!

Brad
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Old 11-18-2008, 12:29 PM   #3135
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Bradley70,

Just thought I'd put in my 2 cents. Now understand that I am fairly new to the hobby and don't have all the setup answers as some who have posted but I have become a student of the hobby and do my best to learn all I can. A buddy of mine has the RRR Evo and he was having the same issue with needing more rear traction and we chased that problem with all kinds of adjustments from camber link changes to the shock springs, shock oil and hinge pin settings. Some changes worked a bit better and some made the problem worse. Seeing that he had a couple of spare chassis we took one and cut out the front cross member to see if that would help as we noticed that was one of the changes on the chassis from my Evo 2. Without making any other changes the car handled totally different. It was much more planted in the rear and while it gave the car more steering it didn't cause the rear of the car to want to come around. I'm guessing that the flex which this allows in the chassis lets the rear of the car follow the front with more stability. We then went to a lighter shock oil and softer springs and the handling is close to on par with my Evo2. Now I'm not saying this is the answer but it certainly took care of the problem my buddy was having. He certainly is much faster on our local track than he was before. It has probably cut 1 to 1 and 1/2 seconds off his lap times. Anyway just thought I'd mention our success with the change we made to an RRR Evo.

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