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Old 12-26-2002, 02:22 AM   #46
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Key word is - Gradually! Well said!

Manticore - never claimed nor meant to speak for you, bud! Not trying to be your spokesman, authorized or unauthorized.

Generally, though, the good advice is followed with some sort of reasoning and not a "RTFM" - at least to the newbies. In any case, most of the cautious, conservative advice given here is good. May not always be, but it is here. It's also fairly consistent.
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Old 12-26-2002, 02:55 PM   #47
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Default The MOST important thing

Guys;

The most important thing about a new engine is SOME kind of break-in proceedure. Balls out, right out of the box will SURELY lead to a short engine life. Every engine is different in what temperature it likes to be run at. My Picco's will not run below 240F without spitting and hissing, but our O.S's and RB's run great at 220F and my Kids HPI .15FE only runs good at about 270F. The .15FE is original piston and sleeve and 1-1/2 yrs old, still runs and idles good.
My Picco .15RE is about 22 months old and is still VERY fast and reliable. The O.S. and RB are both less than a year old. The Picco gets M.H. 30% and the others M.H. 20%, all with a shot of after-run oil at the end of a days racing.

The Moral is;
Take care of your Engine from the first tank to the last and it will provide many hours of satisfaction.
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Old 01-05-2003, 11:52 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by ammdrew
i have noticed very little problems changing fuels also, note though your race breed fuels are less syn and more castor based and if you go lean you will eat the piston.... blue thunder, odonnels, trinity monster, are all pretty on par for average club racing.....
Just a quick note, when you go Full WOT during the backstraight, the synthetic oil burns first and then the only who saves your engine from a expensive ruined piston/sleeve is the castor oil who resists the higher temps during WOT on the backstraight.

Racing mixtures have less oil and gotting more nitro/alcohol on your piston means more HP but average life is slightly compromised.
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Old 01-05-2003, 07:16 PM   #49
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Default bench break-in

I've got two engines to break- in before the spring parking lot season starts here in the midwest and I'm thinking about the bench break-in method to save on wear and tear on my car.We get nice days(temp wise) all the time during the winter months and the streets are still clean but that can change at anytime....one decent snow fall and their covered with sand till spring.

Any thoughts on what size of prop one would use to load the engine(.12 size).I've seen the Serpent break-in bench but I'am not up to the $160 price tag for something I could easily make.

Thanks
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Old 01-06-2003, 10:17 AM   #50
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Go to your LHS. . .just an idea, but ask the airplane section about a good propeller that you can strap on there. . .

Make SURE to make a guard of some kind. . .otherwise we gonna call you three-fingers-Lowrance. . .

You just want something that will put a load on the motor. . .
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Old 01-06-2003, 03:47 PM   #51
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Default The Scientific Theory

My theory is that there are two stages to breaking in an engine. In the first stage, the piston and sleve are worn smooth. A good engine manufaturer makes sure that the piston and sleve fit very tightly together when they're warm this is why you need to break in your engine at the temperature you intend to run it at. If it is any hotter the metal will be swollen and more of the sleve and piston than necesary will be worn off. If you do this .you will have to permenantly run the engine at this temperature to maintain a good seal. If you break it in too cold the steel will begin to temper and become extremely hard. As a result of this when you begin to lean out your engine the parts will be hotter and fit tighter than is desireable (your engine will be more likely to seize) If this happens to you you can probably fix it by starting over again with the break in process, but it will take a lot longer since the steel is tempered. Idealy you should break in just a tiny bit lower than you intend to run at, the parts will fit a bit tight, but your engine will continually become more powerful throughout its life and last a lot longer. Once this first stage has been completed, start running the car really fast (high revs), but still pretty rich, do this for quite a few tanks, the more the better. What this does is further temper the piston and sleve making for a longer lasting, more reliable engine. Once you have completed these steps you will be able to run your engine much leaner than otherwise. The harder smoother surfaces won't need nearly as much oil. It might be possible to accoplish this ntire process by Idling for a quarter tank right out of the box, then racing around reving high with the mixture rich. During break in you might even wanna run lower than neccesary gearing to make it easier to keep the revs up.

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Old 01-06-2003, 04:28 PM   #52
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Default Re: The Scientific Theory

Quote:
Originally posted by the bob
My theory is that there are two stages to breaking in an engine. In the first stage, the piston and sleve are worn smooth. A good engine manufaturer makes sure that the piston and sleve fit very tightly together when they're warm this is why you need to break in your engine at the temperature you intend to run it at. If it is any hotter the metal will be swollen and more of the sleve and piston than necesary will be worn off. If you do this .you will have to permenantly run the engine at this temperature to maintain a good seal. If you break it in too cold the steel will begin to temper and become extremely hard. As a result of this when you begin to lean out your engine the parts will be hotter and fit tighter than is desireable (your engine will be more likely to seize) If this happens to you you can probably fix it by starting over again with the break in process, but it will take a lot longer since the steel is tempered. Idealy you should break in just a tiny bit lower than you intend to run at, the parts will fit a bit tight, but your engine will continually become more powerful throughout its life and last a lot longer. Once this first stage has been completed, start running the car really fast (high revs), but still pretty rich, do this for quite a few tanks, the more the better. What this does is further temper the piston and sleve making for a longer lasting, more reliable engine. Once you have completed these steps you will be able to run your engine much leaner than otherwise. The harder smoother surfaces won't need nearly as much oil. It might be possible to accoplish this ntire process by Idling for a quarter tank right out of the box, then racing around reving high with the mixture rich. During break in you might even wanna run lower than neccesary gearing to make it easier to keep the revs up.
Bob, you're missing several important scientific elements.

First, as with any engine, part of the break-in process is distributing and embedding lubricant in all of the metal parts in the engine. While not a porus substance, the metals in the sleeve, piston, bushings, etc. do retain a certain amount of lubricant and this is one of the most important reasons for a solid breakin.

Second, the break-in period ensures proper mating and lubrication - under NON-STRESSED conditions. A load is needed, but the engine should be broken in without over-revving and over-stressing the motor. This is why every manufacturer, 2-stroke, 4-stroke, automotive, nautical, model, etc. recommends a break-in period with limits on the speed and rpm's during that period. As an example, a friend just purchased a new Hyundai and he was instructed to keep it under 50mph for the first several hundred miles (I don't remember the number. . .didn't really care, it's a Hyundai! ) - The same thing went for a friend's Dodge Diesel.

Lucky you said it was a theory. . .
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Old 01-07-2003, 10:49 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by Manticore
I have an unauthorized speakperson here and he is well put ! what is this world all about?
What do you mean by the above statement(s)?
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Old 01-07-2003, 04:46 PM   #54
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The Bob....

You need to look into metallurgy a little more. Tempering aluminium is not just a case of heating it up. There are many other factors that are needed to be taken into consideration.

The main alloying elements are copper, zinc, magnesium, silicon, manganese and lithium. Small additions of chromium, titanium, zirconium, lead, bismuth and nickel are also made and iron is invariably present in small quantities. There are over 300 wrought alloys with some 50 in common use. They are normally identified by a four figure system which originated in the USA and is now universally accepted. eg 7075. Cast alloys have similar designations and use a five digit system. 70750

The first number in the designation identifies whad element is present.

None (99%+ Aluminium)
1XXX
1XXX0

Copper
2XXX
2XXX0

Manganese
3XXX

Silicon
4XXX
4XXX0

Magnesium
5XXX
5XXX0

Magnesium + Silicon
6XXX
6XXX0

Zinc
7XXX
7XXX0

Lithium
8XXX

Work Hardened Aluminium Alloys
The 1000, 3000 and 5000 series alloys have their properties adjusted by cold work, usually by cold rolling.

The properties of these alloys depend upon the degree of cold work and whether any annealing or stabilising thermal treatment follows the cold work.

Work Hardened Aluminium alloys are designated with a letter...O, F or H followed by one or more numbers. eg 3103-0 is an aluminium manganese alloy in the soft annealed condition and 3103-H16 is the same alloy three quarters hard.

Solution Heat Treated and Age Hardened Aluminium Alloys

The 2000, 4000, 6000, 7000 and 8000 series alloys respond in this way.

The wide choice of alloy compositions, solution heat treatment temperatures and times, quench rates from temperature and choice of artificial ageing treatment permit a wide range of properties to be achieved. A system of standard designations is used, based upon the letter T followed a number after the alloy designation, to describe the various conditions. T1 through to T7
eg 7075 T6 zinc aluminium alloy... Heat treatable, very high strength, non-weldable, poor corrosion resistance. Solution heat-treated and then artificially aged. This designation applies to products which are not cold worked after solution heat-treatment, or in which the effect of cold work in flattening or straightening does not effect mechanical properties.

The piston in our engines, will have undergone all its heat treating process before its inclusion in the engine, and would have in fact been chosen for its specific properties. Breaking in the engine has a lot more to do with perfecting the fit of the piston and sleve, than re-heat treating its components.
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Old 01-07-2003, 05:19 PM   #55
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i break my engine putting 4 tanks at
idle with stoping the first two tanks
at 2.5 min. and run the car at less than
half throttle blipping the throttle slowly
on the 5-6th tank after that I start leaning
out the engine gradually still driving it
slow until the carb needle is close to
optimimum settings. note to keep close
tabs on the temp when idling the car for
the first four tanks use a fan if you have to
since there is no air passing when the car
is on blocks. the reason for slow break in
is to have the piston and sleeve expand
and contract if you drive it fast right out
the box you will be putting a lot of load
on the rod and wont have even piston
to sleeve wear. mostlikely your sleeve
will be worn on one side from instant
load before the engine has had time to
warm up. it is also a good idea to warm
up the engine close to operating temp.
before racing. ive had good luck with
all my engines using this break in procedure.
7 gallons on my j-tech with the original rod.
running 40 min. mains.
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Old 01-08-2003, 01:13 PM   #56
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With break-in: I keep hearing two things, that the temps should be kept low-idle first tank, run real rich 3 tanks(150-160F), then start to lean out to optimum temps and the other thing- first tank run at operating temp (200-210F) RIGHT AWAY, do not idle, with a series of heat cycles. Then start to lean out to optimum temp, running close to full throttle near your last few tanks.

So which one is it?

Run cold or cool first then hotter later......or.....run near hot(200-210) right away then tune later?

I've been going with the run cool first method with mixed results. Still trying to learn how to tune by ear and watching the engine's performance on the track. And not relying too much on my Exergen.
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Old 01-08-2003, 02:34 PM   #57
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ive read articles in magazines that have suggested the driving at 200 heatcycling method that i use check rccaraction or nitro

i have used both methods on mt-12 engines i ran idle tanks through the first 2 i had and ran the third the third was the fastest i know this isnt proof cause all engines are different but that is what i found it was noticeably faster IMO

plus if i run car im not bored standing next to an idling engine breathing fumes
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Old 01-09-2003, 10:50 AM   #58
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Boomer, manitcore, pops, the bob, myself etc are all basicly saying the same thing. Idle in for 2 or 3 tanks. Then run it for about 4-6 more keeping it rich and within limits. BTW let is cool off a while b/w tanks. Any dont be so worried about the engine temp! If you keep it rich like your suppose to then it will be fine. Im my opinion, just break it in and be done with it. If this is probably the 1st engine you have then you might ruin it quick since you might not be able to tune right. But dont worry, you'll get the hang of it. And if you do know how to tune, more power to ya man. I understand you are nervious but dont worry about it. Have fun. BTW jason, dont breath in the exaust. It could cause such effects as......ummm n/m. While breaking in my team sts mt12, I held my zippo near my cvec's stingers and it made a sweet looknig blue flame. Kinda dumb but hey, it was an idea.
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