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Old 03-03-2007, 01:02 PM   #2026
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Good news. I have run my 4th tank and will soon start setting the needles for optimum tuning.
The drawing that I made, sorry to say I threw it out. I am a visual learner. I see how the 3rd one way will work. You will not loose steering nor break. Think about this for a second. Tires with different diameters will turn at a differnet rates. A larger front tire will turn slower than a smaller rear. Under power, the part of the car that has to compensate for the difference is the front drive belt or the front one way.

59mm front - 57mm rear = rear wheel turning faster than the front!


Just trying help out. I can't draw with my keyboard!
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Old 03-04-2007, 02:00 AM   #2027
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I think what makes this 3rd one-way complicated is that it's also depended on the tire size. This also has to do with the front-back ratio.
If i'm understanding this right, the 3rd one-way only works when the rear tires are spinning faster then the front when the car is rolling (off throttle!), in normal situations this would mean that the rear tires are smaller.

So, when the rear tires are smaller and thus spinning harder, the 3rd one-way will disengage. This is because the front wheels are on the track and 'pulling' the side belt,which is connected with the 2speed shaft. Now there's friction because the rear tires won't spin that fast (they are also on the track - i hope). In that situation, the 3rd one-way disengages making the front tires able to spin slower then the rear tires removing the friction and thus making the car roll beter off throttle and into the corner.
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Old 03-04-2007, 02:22 AM   #2028
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _cyclops_
I think what makes this 3rd one-way complicated is that it's also depended on the tire size. This also has to do with the front-back ratio.
If i'm understanding this right, the 3rd one-way only works when the rear tires are spinning faster then the front when the car is rolling (off throttle!), in normal situations this would mean that the rear tires are smaller.

So, when the rear tires are smaller and thus spinning harder, the 3rd one-way will disengage. This is because the front wheels are on the track and 'pulling' the side belt,which is connected with the 2speed shaft. Now there's friction because the rear tires won't spin that fast (they are also on the track - i hope). In that situation, the 3rd one-way disengages making the front tires able to spin slower then the rear tires removing the friction and thus making the car roll beter off throttle and into the corner.
I liked your explanation but it makes my head spin I had to read it three times and still i'm not sure if agree or not.

I don't recall any part that has created this much of a talking point. I think we need to get something into perspective here and that is we already have the best car and yet we still aren't satisfied with being the best.

Like my sig says when only the best will do.
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Old 03-04-2007, 04:11 AM   #2029
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B4
I liked your explanation but it makes my head spin I had to read it three times and still i'm not sure if agree or not.

I don't recall any part that has created this much of a talking point. I think we need to get something into perspective here and that is we already have the best car and yet we still aren't satisfied with being the best.

Like my sig says when only the best will do.
I'm not the best guy to explain this

I think only a movie or animation would clear up how this 3rd one-way works.... then you can animate the different situations...
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Old 03-04-2007, 05:44 AM   #2030
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Well, I'll try and confuse everyone with my explination now

First a short re-cap of what we have:

1) The two speed shaft is connected directly to the front axle via the side pulley and the mid pulley. So when the two speed shaft rotates, the front axle will be driven - always.

2) The 3rd one-way is connected directly to the rear axle via the rear pulley. Also the break rotor is part of the 3rd one-way assembly and this means that the brakes have a direct link to the rear axle - when the brakes are applied, the braking force will always be applied to the rear axle.

3) The 3rd one-way can only engage when the two speed shaft rotates faster than the 3rd one-way's pulley which drives the rear axle.

To best understand the 3rd one-way, first look at the front and rear axles independently and work out which one is spinning faster under which circumstances, the you can work out whether the 3rd one-way engages or not.

First assume we have a 1:1 drive ratio when the front and rear tyres are the same size.

Say we have the situation where the front tyres are 1mm smaller than the rears. The car is being driven around the circuit, so it is moving with a certain speed. This means both the front and rear axles are rotating.

Ok first look at the front axle: as the tyres are 1mm smaller than the rears, then for a given speed at which the car is travelling, the smaller tyres have to rotate faster than the rears to be able to cover the same distance in the same time - as there is a direct mechanical link from the front axle to the two-speed shaft, then it is given, that the two-speed shaft will also be rotating faster than the 3rd one-way's pulley, which has a direct mechanical link to the rear axle.

If we are currently on power, power is delivered to the front tyres via the two-speed (direct mechanical link). As the front tyres are rotating faster than the rears, then this also means that the two-speed will be rotating faster than the 3rd one-way's pulley (which has the direct mechanical link to the rear axle). As the two-speed is rotating faster than the 3rd one-way's pulley, then the 3rd one-way engages - meaning that both axles will be driven.

When we come to brake, we have a similar situation: whatever the speed of the car, the front wheels have to rotate faster than the rears to cover the same distance in the same time. As the fronts have a direct mechanical link to the two-speed shaft, this means that the two-speed shaft will also be rotating faster than the 3rd one-way's pulley - this means that in this circumstance the 3rd one-way will also be engaged and will cause the braking force to be delivered to both axles.

Now if we imagine we have the situation where the front tyres are 1mm bigger than the rears, then the front axle will be rotating slower than the rear axle for any given speed. This is because the front tyres have to cover more distance per revolution than the rears, therefore they will be rotating slower to cover the same distance as the rears in the same amount time.

As the front axle has a direct mechanical link to the two-speed shaft, then the two-speed shaft must also be rotating slower than the 3rd one-way's pulley (which has a direct mechanical link to the rear axle). Also, we know that the 3rd one-way only engages when the two-speed shaft is running faster than the 3rd one-way's pulley, so in this example, as the two-speed shaft is rotating slower than the 3rd one-way's pulley, then the 3rd one-way will not engage and in the on-power situation no power will be delivered to the rear tyres.
This is only because the rear tyres are smaller relative to the fronts and therefore the movement of the car over the ground means the rears are rotating faster than the fronts. The direct mechanical link (rear pulley) from the rear axle causes the 3rd one-way's pulley also to rotate faster than the two-speed and therefore will not engage.

Under braking the situation is the same. The two-speed shaft will also be rotating slower than the 3rd one-way's pulley, so the 3rd one-way will not engage. Remembering that the brake rotor is part of the 3rd one-way's pulley, then there is a direct mechanical link to the rear axle, meaning that the braking force will be transfered to the rear tyres. And as the 3rd one-way is disengaged, the front tyres will receive no braking force.

It can be complicated to envisage in one's head, so always think about how fast the front and rear axles have to rotate for different tyre sizes. Once you have this, then you also know how fast the two-speed shaft and 3rd one-way's pulley have to be rotating. Then you can simply work out if the 3rd one-way is engaged or not, i.e.:

two-speed shaft slower than 3rd one-way's pulley = not engaged
two-speed shaft faster than 3rd one-way's pulley = engaged
3rd one-way's pulley faster than two-speed shaft = not engaged
3rd one-way's pulley slower than two-speed shaft = engaged.

And to sumarise:

Braking power is always applied to the rears due to the mechanical link from the brake rotor to the rear axle - the fronts only receive braking power when the 3rd one-way is engaged.

Power from the engine is always applied to the fronts due to the mechanical link from the two-speed to the front axle - the rears only receive power when the 3rd one-way is engaged.

Cheers, Mark.
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Old 03-04-2007, 06:38 AM   #2031
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why all the fuse
watch someone using it or just buy the damn thing like I did

I loved it. After 3rd tank, with some setup changed, lap time improved about .3sec. If .3 sec is important for you, buy it.
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Old 03-04-2007, 07:47 AM   #2032
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markp27
Well, I'll try and confuse everyone with my explination now

First a short re-cap of what we have:

1) The two speed shaft is connected directly to the front axle via the side pulley and the mid pulley. So when the two speed shaft rotates, the front axle will be driven - always.

2) The 3rd one-way is connected directly to the rear axle via the rear pulley. Also the break rotor is part of the 3rd one-way assembly and this means that the brakes have a direct link to the rear axle - when the brakes are applied, the braking force will always be applied to the rear axle.

3) The 3rd one-way can only engage when the two speed shaft rotates faster than the 3rd one-way's pulley which drives the rear axle.

To best understand the 3rd one-way, first look at the front and rear axles independently and work out which one is spinning faster under which circumstances, the you can work out whether the 3rd one-way engages or not.

First assume we have a 1:1 drive ratio when the front and rear tyres are the same size.

Say we have the situation where the front tyres are 1mm smaller than the rears. The car is being driven around the circuit, so it is moving with a certain speed. This means both the front and rear axles are rotating.

Ok first look at the front axle: as the tyres are 1mm smaller than the rears, then for a given speed at which the car is travelling, the smaller tyres have to rotate faster than the rears to be able to cover the same distance in the same time - as there is a direct mechanical link from the front axle to the two-speed shaft, then it is given, that the two-speed shaft will also be rotating faster than the 3rd one-way's pulley, which has a direct mechanical link to the rear axle.

If we are currently on power, power is delivered to the front tyres via the two-speed (direct mechanical link). As the front tyres are rotating faster than the rears, then this also means that the two-speed will be rotating faster than the 3rd one-way's pulley (which has the direct mechanical link to the rear axle). As the two-speed is rotating faster than the 3rd one-way's pulley, then the 3rd one-way engages - meaning that both axles will be driven.

When we come to brake, we have a similar situation: whatever the speed of the car, the front wheels have to rotate faster than the rears to cover the same distance in the same time. As the fronts have a direct mechanical link to the two-speed shaft, this means that the two-speed shaft will also be rotating faster than the 3rd one-way's pulley - this means that in this circumstance the 3rd one-way will also be engaged and will cause the braking force to be delivered to both axles.

Now if we imagine we have the situation where the front tyres are 1mm bigger than the rears, then the front axle will be rotating slower than the rear axle for any given speed. This is because the front tyres have to cover more distance per revolution than the rears, therefore they will be rotating slower to cover the same distance as the rears in the same amount time.

As the front axle has a direct mechanical link to the two-speed shaft, then the two-speed shaft must also be rotating slower than the 3rd one-way's pulley (which has a direct mechanical link to the rear axle). Also, we know that the 3rd one-way only engages when the two-speed shaft is running faster than the 3rd one-way's pulley, so in this example, as the two-speed shaft is rotating slower than the 3rd one-way's pulley, then the 3rd one-way will not engage and in the on-power situation no power will be delivered to the rear tyres.
This is only because the rear tyres are smaller relative to the fronts and therefore the movement of the car over the ground means the rears are rotating faster than the fronts. The direct mechanical link (rear pulley) from the rear axle causes the 3rd one-way's pulley also to rotate faster than the two-speed and therefore will not engage.

Under braking the situation is the same. The two-speed shaft will also be rotating slower than the 3rd one-way's pulley, so the 3rd one-way will not engage. Remembering that the brake rotor is part of the 3rd one-way's pulley, then there is a direct mechanical link to the rear axle, meaning that the braking force will be transfered to the rear tyres. And as the 3rd one-way is disengaged, the front tyres will receive no braking force.

It can be complicated to envisage in one's head, so always think about how fast the front and rear axles have to rotate for different tyre sizes. Once you have this, then you also know how fast the two-speed shaft and 3rd one-way's pulley have to be rotating. Then you can simply work out if the 3rd one-way is engaged or not, i.e.:

two-speed shaft slower than 3rd one-way's pulley = not engaged
two-speed shaft faster than 3rd one-way's pulley = engaged
3rd one-way's pulley faster than two-speed shaft = not engaged
3rd one-way's pulley slower than two-speed shaft = engaged.

And to sumarise:

Braking power is always applied to the rears due to the mechanical link from the brake rotor to the rear axle - the fronts only receive braking power when the 3rd one-way is engaged.

Power from the engine is always applied to the fronts due to the mechanical link from the two-speed to the front axle - the rears only receive power when the 3rd one-way is engaged.

Cheers, Mark.
you are right, your expounding of the subject is a little bit confusing i think i will stick with Julius explanation
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Old 03-04-2007, 08:45 AM   #2033
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markp27
Well, I'll try and confuse everyone with my explination now

First a short re-cap of what we have:

1) The two speed shaft is connected directly to the front axle via the side pulley and the mid pulley. So when the two speed shaft rotates, the front axle will be driven - always.

2) The 3rd one-way is connected directly to the rear axle via the rear pulley. Also the break rotor is part of the 3rd one-way assembly and this means that the brakes have a direct link to the rear axle - when the brakes are applied, the braking force will always be applied to the rear axle.

3) The 3rd one-way can only engage when the two speed shaft rotates faster than the 3rd one-way's pulley which drives the rear axle.

To best understand the 3rd one-way, first look at the front and rear axles independently and work out which one is spinning faster under which circumstances, the you can work out whether the 3rd one-way engages or not.

First assume we have a 1:1 drive ratio when the front and rear tyres are the same size.

Say we have the situation where the front tyres are 1mm smaller than the rears. The car is being driven around the circuit, so it is moving with a certain speed. This means both the front and rear axles are rotating.

Ok first look at the front axle: as the tyres are 1mm smaller than the rears, then for a given speed at which the car is travelling, the smaller tyres have to rotate faster than the rears to be able to cover the same distance in the same time - as there is a direct mechanical link from the front axle to the two-speed shaft, then it is given, that the two-speed shaft will also be rotating faster than the 3rd one-way's pulley, which has a direct mechanical link to the rear axle.

If we are currently on power, power is delivered to the front tyres via the two-speed (direct mechanical link). As the front tyres are rotating faster than the rears, then this also means that the two-speed will be rotating faster than the 3rd one-way's pulley (which has the direct mechanical link to the rear axle). As the two-speed is rotating faster than the 3rd one-way's pulley, then the 3rd one-way engages - meaning that both axles will be driven.

When we come to brake, we have a similar situation: whatever the speed of the car, the front wheels have to rotate faster than the rears to cover the same distance in the same time. As the fronts have a direct mechanical link to the two-speed shaft, this means that the two-speed shaft will also be rotating faster than the 3rd one-way's pulley - this means that in this circumstance the 3rd one-way will also be engaged and will cause the braking force to be delivered to both axles.

Now if we imagine we have the situation where the front tyres are 1mm bigger than the rears, then the front axle will be rotating slower than the rear axle for any given speed. This is because the front tyres have to cover more distance per revolution than the rears, therefore they will be rotating slower to cover the same distance as the rears in the same amount time.

As the front axle has a direct mechanical link to the two-speed shaft, then the two-speed shaft must also be rotating slower than the 3rd one-way's pulley (which has a direct mechanical link to the rear axle). Also, we know that the 3rd one-way only engages when the two-speed shaft is running faster than the 3rd one-way's pulley, so in this example, as the two-speed shaft is rotating slower than the 3rd one-way's pulley, then the 3rd one-way will not engage and in the on-power situation no power will be delivered to the rear tyres.
This is only because the rear tyres are smaller relative to the fronts and therefore the movement of the car over the ground means the rears are rotating faster than the fronts. The direct mechanical link (rear pulley) from the rear axle causes the 3rd one-way's pulley also to rotate faster than the two-speed and therefore will not engage.

Under braking the situation is the same. The two-speed shaft will also be rotating slower than the 3rd one-way's pulley, so the 3rd one-way will not engage. Remembering that the brake rotor is part of the 3rd one-way's pulley, then there is a direct mechanical link to the rear axle, meaning that the braking force will be transfered to the rear tyres. And as the 3rd one-way is disengaged, the front tyres will receive no braking force.

It can be complicated to envisage in one's head, so always think about how fast the front and rear axles have to rotate for different tyre sizes. Once you have this, then you also know how fast the two-speed shaft and 3rd one-way's pulley have to be rotating. Then you can simply work out if the 3rd one-way is engaged or not, i.e.:

two-speed shaft slower than 3rd one-way's pulley = not engaged
two-speed shaft faster than 3rd one-way's pulley = engaged
3rd one-way's pulley faster than two-speed shaft = not engaged
3rd one-way's pulley slower than two-speed shaft = engaged.

And to sumarise:

Braking power is always applied to the rears due to the mechanical link from the brake rotor to the rear axle - the fronts only receive braking power when the 3rd one-way is engaged.

Power from the engine is always applied to the fronts due to the mechanical link from the two-speed to the front axle - the rears only receive power when the 3rd one-way is engaged.

Cheers, Mark.
Good write-up Mark. That's almost what I wanted to say too ... but in my head there is one more thing I needed to explain (see below) and I was just too lazy to type it all.

Not to mention that I'm also like some of the guys here, I prefer to just buy one and trash it out and see.

Anyway, here is the situation (roughly) that I was too lazy to write about ... and that is to explain that even when the front is larger than the rear, there is a transition point at which the braking forces WILL be applied both to the front and to the rear which is GOOD news. This is probably because any of the following reasons :-

1- the rear tyres could start to slip a little,
2- the slack (or imperfect mid-belt mechanical coupling to between the front and rear) will allow for minor relative speed differences between the two axles
3- as the braking is applied, the rear will slow down first and then the 3rd one-way engages, applying brake force to the front but then the relative speed "recovers" and then the 3rd one-way disengages again and so this process could potentially repeat.

Point 3 above is difficult to explain, probably best driven on the track BUT if this is true then this is another good news because you end up potentially having a mechanical ABS!

OK, enough BS'ing from me. The border tells me mine is on the way, I'll then mess around with it and see ... might even write something about it over at 3hobby.net.
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Old 03-04-2007, 09:18 AM   #2034
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sow&Steady
Point 3 above is difficult to explain, probably best driven on the track BUT if this is true then this is another good news because you end up potentially having a mechanical ABS!
In theory, if the fronts ever locked-up under braking with the rears still rotating, then they would recieve no braking force anymore and as soon as they start to rotate again, then the braking force would be re-applied - this would give an ABS type effect at the front-end. I think it is unlikely to happen, due to the large weight transfer to the front of the car under braking, which would prevent the fronts from locking up first.

More probable is the situation you describe, where the mechanical take up in the transmission allows for a "pulsed" braking effect.

I'm interested to hear how this thing works in practice.

Cheers, Mark.

Last edited by markp27; 03-04-2007 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 03-04-2007, 09:25 AM   #2035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kitracer
why all the fuse
watch someone using it or just buy the damn thing like I did
Absolutely correct, Kitracer I just like the technical discussions, though

For me it is important to understand how such a thing works in theory, otherwise, I would potentially not be able to get the best out of it and know when best to use it.

Cheers, Mark.
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Old 03-04-2007, 10:14 AM   #2036
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kitracer
why all the fuse
watch someone using it or just buy the damn thing like I did


I loved it. After 3rd tank, with some setup changed, lap time improved about .3sec. If .3 sec is important for you, buy it.
true so true
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Old 03-04-2007, 10:33 AM   #2037
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Originally Posted by markp27
Absolutely correct, Kitracer I just like the technical discussions, though
Same here ... also this is why this forum is called RCTech and all the ranks are technical terms.

Quote:
For me it is important to understand how such a thing works in theory, otherwise, I would potentially not be able to get the best out of it and know when best to use it.

Cheers, Mark.
Yes right ... so you gonna go make one for your nippon-denso car now?
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Old 03-04-2007, 10:34 AM   #2038
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Well guys tested the 3rd one-way at my local track, Halifax in the UK and all i can say is it is a must for any serious racer.

The car had loads more rotation through the whole of the corner and chanded direction very very well, without the loss of any brakes.

Serpent make awsome products but this is up there with the best.

Julius everything you said it did and more thanks for your help on here
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Old 03-04-2007, 10:35 AM   #2039
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markp27
In theory, if the fronts ever locked-up under braking with the rears still rotating, then they would recieve no braking force anymore and as soon as they start to rotate again, then the braking force would be re-applied - this would give an ABS type effect at the front-end. I think it is unlikely to happen, due to the large weight transfer to the front of the car under braking, which would prevent the fronts from locking up first.

More probable is the situation you describe, where the mechanical take up in the transmission allows for a "pulsed" braking effect.

I'm interested to hear how this thing works in practice.

Cheers, Mark.
Yes correct, "pulsed effect" and not the lock-up scenario because its unlikely that despite our "on-off" behaviour with the throttle finger, the front locks up all the time. The deterioration of the brake pads, smoothness of the brake disc etc will contribute to a gradual effect of braking and hence gradual change in relative speeds of the two axles so to speak.
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Old 03-04-2007, 10:50 AM   #2040
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius
You do not lose steering at corner entry. Only because the one way helps to remove the drag in the drivetrain, the car will slow down less when you let off the throttle. That means you may find yourself using the brake more.

Or you can change the setup to be more agressive at corner entry.

Because in the beginning you need to get used to the free roll in the car you might interpret it as losing steering.
got to agree with this 100%
ran today at halifax, really freed the car up had as much steering but did need to use more brakes, but mid corner you could lift of and the car would just roll with no "drag" making the corner smoother and faster, took some getting used to but nearly there.
also made the car allot better in the damp/wet, smoother and lass push from the transmission bind, (this was on pit wet rubber tyres)

re brakes, i notice that i could stop the car as well as normal, and when the tyres were smaller in the first run (practice rear bigger, first qual rears smaller) the rear would for a split second step out (as though it had had hand brake applied) if not in a straight line, in a straight line this was minimal,
with same size to bigger rrear this was not noticable.

as simo said top product of the year award for this!!!! now how long before others copy it
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