64LikesWHAT HAS KILLED THE NITRO GT CLASS IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA?
11-29-2017, 03:12 PM
#16
an endless discussion time and over again. In the Netherlands we'll do whats right. Solid competition with affordable and equal weaponry. Controlled engine and inlet, controlled muffler, controlled tires (which last longer then just s final). Then there's still more then enough room to tune.
Most racers think racing is about winning. Winners need racers to win from. Whatever kind of rules you apply the same guys will keep winning as they are better in racing and setup. All racers running in a class need to know, see and feel that they have potentially the same weaponry against a reasonable price. Then there are the organisers who most of the time fail to keep the rules and changes to it within limits which in the end will kill every class.
Most racers think racing is about winning. Winners need racers to win from. Whatever kind of rules you apply the same guys will keep winning as they are better in racing and setup. All racers running in a class need to know, see and feel that they have potentially the same weaponry against a reasonable price. Then there are the organisers who most of the time fail to keep the rules and changes to it within limits which in the end will kill every class.
11-29-2017, 03:14 PM
#17
What is the cheapest kit to buy if someone wanted to get into the GT class ? whats the cost of a motor for a 1st timer ?
11-29-2017, 04:24 PM
#18
Find it interesting how people put their two cents in on a class they don’t race and haven’t raced in years... right now the engines are cheap and fast , the picco GT1 is a little over 300 and the nova mito a little under 300. Neither engine needs to be modified and are faster than when we had open engine rules. I set the track record last weekend at the GCGP with a non DLC picco GT1 that wasn’t modified. So let’s retire the expensive engine nonsense because it’s simply not true. A FASTER ENGINE ALONE WILL NOT MAKE YOU A FASTER DRIVER ITS CAR SETUP AND DRIVING JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER CLASS. What ever happened to “ lose on race day and figure out how to get faster next time out” ?
Nitro and novice should never be in the same sentence , it’s just too much for a beginner to start off with.
Without the exposure of “PRO” Drivers the class would never have gotten as big as it is. Mugen would never have released a car nor would X-ray or IGT8. We used to only have only Kyosho now we have Serpent, IGT8,Mugen,X-ray and Sworx, I would say that is growth. GT just like every class is ever evolving and will continue to no matter what rules are put into place. You wanted 5 port engines with 7mm Venturi, it was adapted and then optimized by the industry.
I can’t answer why it is dying in Cali but internationally the class is thriving, race classes tend to be regional. What is popular on the east coast isn’t always popular on the west coast ,that’s just RC racing in general.
Nitro and novice should never be in the same sentence , it’s just too much for a beginner to start off with.
Without the exposure of “PRO” Drivers the class would never have gotten as big as it is. Mugen would never have released a car nor would X-ray or IGT8. We used to only have only Kyosho now we have Serpent, IGT8,Mugen,X-ray and Sworx, I would say that is growth. GT just like every class is ever evolving and will continue to no matter what rules are put into place. You wanted 5 port engines with 7mm Venturi, it was adapted and then optimized by the industry.
I can’t answer why it is dying in Cali but internationally the class is thriving, race classes tend to be regional. What is popular on the east coast isn’t always popular on the west coast ,that’s just RC racing in general.
11-29-2017, 04:30 PM
#19
In the end what kills most classes is cost versus reward. Once the hobby racer (every non fully supported racer) reaches the point where the fun of racing no longer outweighs the money spent he will stop.
As with any class, GT has befallen to the ever present desire of some racers to go faster and faster. Not by getting better themselves but by getting better stuff. This creates a market for higher performance parts, engines, bodies and, for gt an important cost aspect, tires.
Especially the new generation of tires that just lasts a main has driven up the cost. Because the added grip creates room, and need, for better engines, better bodyshells and more wear and tear on the cars. Also better tires makes setup more important and this combined with the higher speeds will increase the performance difference between good and not so good racers.
In the end every class that gets too fast for the hobbyist will end up becoming for high spenders and factory supported racers only. One only needs too look at electric racing. The entry numbers of modified and fast stock classes if dropping , where classes like 17,5 and 21,5 formula cars is on the rise.
As with any class, GT has befallen to the ever present desire of some racers to go faster and faster. Not by getting better themselves but by getting better stuff. This creates a market for higher performance parts, engines, bodies and, for gt an important cost aspect, tires.
Especially the new generation of tires that just lasts a main has driven up the cost. Because the added grip creates room, and need, for better engines, better bodyshells and more wear and tear on the cars. Also better tires makes setup more important and this combined with the higher speeds will increase the performance difference between good and not so good racers.
In the end every class that gets too fast for the hobbyist will end up becoming for high spenders and factory supported racers only. One only needs too look at electric racing. The entry numbers of modified and fast stock classes if dropping , where classes like 17,5 and 21,5 formula cars is on the rise.
Going back to what I mentioned earlier about regional because here in Texas 17.5 TC and F1 are dying, just depends on where you are. I race electric too but the motor/battery wars are out of control for spec class.
11-29-2017, 07:38 PM
#20
Tech Addict
iTrader: (38)
yeap. I agree with the comment on people that want to be the best via getting the expensive stuff. I have been doing this for little over 19 years and it's amazing the amount of people that spend a ton of money in order to get "faster". At the end, they leave the hobby because they can't seem to win or get the recognition of being "one of the fast guys" in a short amount of time. Well, in order to get fast you need to practice and race your ass off just like in any other motorsport. I am an electric TC racer and I recently got back into nitro specifically to GT racing. I got out of nitro 1/10 TC back in 2003 because of how expensive it was to race (foam tires, gas, plugs...specially the damn foam tires). GT it's a lot simpler and more forgiving in the event of a crash, they are war tanks!. At this point, they are really fast but not fast enough to overwhelm anybody.
11-30-2017, 01:36 AM
#21
Find it interesting how people put their two cents in on a class they don’t race and haven’t raced in years... right now the engines are cheap and fast , the picco GT1 is a little over 300 and the nova mito a little under 300. Neither engine needs to be modified and are faster than when we had open engine rules. I set the track record last weekend at the GCGP with a non DLC picco GT1 that wasn’t modified. So let’s retire the expensive engine nonsense because it’s simply not true. A FASTER ENGINE ALONE WILL NOT MAKE YOU A FASTER DRIVER ITS CAR SETUP AND DRIVING JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER CLASS. What ever happened to “ lose on race day and figure out how to get faster next time out” ?
Nitro and novice should never be in the same sentence , it’s just too much for a beginner to start off with.
Without the exposure of “PRO” Drivers the class would never have gotten as big as it is. Mugen would never have released a car nor would X-ray or IGT8. We used to only have only Kyosho now we have Serpent, IGT8,Mugen,X-ray and Sworx, I would say that is growth. GT just like every class is ever evolving and will continue to no matter what rules are put into place. You wanted 5 port engines with 7mm Venturi, it was adapted and then optimized by the industry.
I can’t answer why it is dying in Cali but internationally the class is thriving, race classes tend to be regional. What is popular on the east coast isn’t always popular on the west coast ,that’s just RC racing in general.
Nitro and novice should never be in the same sentence , it’s just too much for a beginner to start off with.
Without the exposure of “PRO” Drivers the class would never have gotten as big as it is. Mugen would never have released a car nor would X-ray or IGT8. We used to only have only Kyosho now we have Serpent, IGT8,Mugen,X-ray and Sworx, I would say that is growth. GT just like every class is ever evolving and will continue to no matter what rules are put into place. You wanted 5 port engines with 7mm Venturi, it was adapted and then optimized by the industry.
I can’t answer why it is dying in Cali but internationally the class is thriving, race classes tend to be regional. What is popular on the east coast isn’t always popular on the west coast ,that’s just RC racing in general.
my 2c....:0
w.
11-30-2017, 05:22 AM
#22
Hello Mantis, I tend to agree with you on most of it as it is ever evolving. it's up to the organisers and nobody else Not the industry nor the pro drivers or their behavior is responsible. It's the organisers who fail to keep things in control. The speed of evolvement mostly led by the pro drivers and the industry to follow MUST be kept within limits so everybody can adapt without hitting them too hard in the wallet and time.
my 2c....:0
w.
my 2c....:0
w.
I agree.
In my opinion the only thing hurting the class right now is tires. They are 60 a set and you have to have at least 2sets for a race weekend, they don’t last very long.
11-30-2017, 08:11 AM
#23
Hello Mantis, I tend to agree with you on most of it as it is ever evolving. it's up to the organisers and nobody else Not the industry nor the pro drivers or their behavior is responsible. It's the organisers who fail to keep things in control. The speed of evolvement mostly led by the pro drivers and the industry to follow MUST be kept within limits so everybody can adapt without hitting them too hard in the wallet and time.
my 2c....:0
w.
my 2c....:0
w.
11-30-2017, 09:11 AM
#24
It is too simple to say it is up to the organisers to keep control. How can they keep control if they do not know the cheats or even how to control all? Tooling for a technical inspection is needed and do not think only the organisers know all. Beside that, when there is all the tooling it is very time consuming to check all, most important is that the drivers know all can be checked so they will ease down going beyond the rules.
Look at our class, tire treatment is forfidden but there is no 100% detection methode. Nice to have such a rule and we all know who is doing it when they are taking corners on 2 wheels.... How you gonna proof that?
There is nothing wrong with finding the limits of the rules but going beyond them is sometimes very simple because rules aren't always controlable. And there comes the honesty of the drivers and also manufacturers.
Look at our class, tire treatment is forfidden but there is no 100% detection methode. Nice to have such a rule and we all know who is doing it when they are taking corners on 2 wheels.... How you gonna proof that?
There is nothing wrong with finding the limits of the rules but going beyond them is sometimes very simple because rules aren't always controlable. And there comes the honesty of the drivers and also manufacturers.
12-03-2017, 11:17 AM
#25
I would say that wkloppen covered it on the aspect of controlling cost.
Rules must be enforced firmly across the board or the whole system falls apart.
I ask however, ultimately, who is responsible for writing the rules? (because the rules and how they are written determine expense) The racers who foot the bill? The sanctioning bodies? The manufacturers?
I have yet to see a forum or discussion board where the racers who pay out of their pockets to support the industry are asked what they want nor are invited to vote on new regulations.
In 1990 Serpent introduced the 235mm class. The car was a scaled down 1/8 on road chassis, 2WD, foam tired, powered by .12 engine (if memory serves). This was an awesome class. Fun to drive, easy to tune, less expensive than 1/8. A near perfect entry level platform. The class was very popular for several years. Over the next 13 years the class had several manufactures including BMT, PICCO, OFNA, Neo to name a few. By the time the class began to phase out in or around 2003/2004, the cars had gone from 2wd to 4wd. From .12 engines to .15. The cars had essentially become as expensive and nearly as fast as 1/8 open. The expense of the class was its own demise.
Yet I ask, who changed all the rules? Did the racers actually vote for the changes? Did the manufacturers decide to offer 4wd kits and .15 engine and let the market decide? Either way in the end, it does not matter because that class, and I consider it one the best that there ever was, is gone forever.
Same thing is happening with the GT class. The class gets to be so expensive and/or complex, racers either move up to something else or quit the sport altogether.
One last thought. In the end, in my opinion, it all has to do with disposable income. The real deciding factor.
Classes come and go because in the end the racers who foot the bill do not work together as a collective whole (to either enforce the rules and/or break the rules) and the class spirals out of control in one way or another. That seems to be the rule. But perhaps the underlying determining factor for how long the class lives/lasts is disposable income.
So, sadly, while the stock market rallies at 24k, the working Joe, (who for the most part has been the bread and butter of this sport, at least here in the US) can no longer really afford it.
So my suggestion is this: racer's who are still interested in having a 1/8 GT class here in Southern Califorinia should look into the rules being used in the Netherlands. WKloppen racing organization seems to have found a reasonable and successful program. I would say, forget the rules suggested by anyone, the racers should decide what they would like. If that means 3 port engines, 7mm restrictors, 2015 pipes, spec tires, etc. then so be it. This is nothing more than a grass roots, ground level approach at creating and keeping a spec class alive. The drivers who race here locally do not need to meet any organizations specific rules to run club races. When it comes to bigger or sanctioned races hosted by GLARC, the racers can always opt out of the rules specified and run their own rules so long as any one attending from out of the area knows this in advance.
Thought's? Ideas?
Rules must be enforced firmly across the board or the whole system falls apart.
I ask however, ultimately, who is responsible for writing the rules? (because the rules and how they are written determine expense) The racers who foot the bill? The sanctioning bodies? The manufacturers?
I have yet to see a forum or discussion board where the racers who pay out of their pockets to support the industry are asked what they want nor are invited to vote on new regulations.
In 1990 Serpent introduced the 235mm class. The car was a scaled down 1/8 on road chassis, 2WD, foam tired, powered by .12 engine (if memory serves). This was an awesome class. Fun to drive, easy to tune, less expensive than 1/8. A near perfect entry level platform. The class was very popular for several years. Over the next 13 years the class had several manufactures including BMT, PICCO, OFNA, Neo to name a few. By the time the class began to phase out in or around 2003/2004, the cars had gone from 2wd to 4wd. From .12 engines to .15. The cars had essentially become as expensive and nearly as fast as 1/8 open. The expense of the class was its own demise.
Yet I ask, who changed all the rules? Did the racers actually vote for the changes? Did the manufacturers decide to offer 4wd kits and .15 engine and let the market decide? Either way in the end, it does not matter because that class, and I consider it one the best that there ever was, is gone forever.
Same thing is happening with the GT class. The class gets to be so expensive and/or complex, racers either move up to something else or quit the sport altogether.
One last thought. In the end, in my opinion, it all has to do with disposable income. The real deciding factor.
Classes come and go because in the end the racers who foot the bill do not work together as a collective whole (to either enforce the rules and/or break the rules) and the class spirals out of control in one way or another. That seems to be the rule. But perhaps the underlying determining factor for how long the class lives/lasts is disposable income.
So, sadly, while the stock market rallies at 24k, the working Joe, (who for the most part has been the bread and butter of this sport, at least here in the US) can no longer really afford it.
So my suggestion is this: racer's who are still interested in having a 1/8 GT class here in Southern Califorinia should look into the rules being used in the Netherlands. WKloppen racing organization seems to have found a reasonable and successful program. I would say, forget the rules suggested by anyone, the racers should decide what they would like. If that means 3 port engines, 7mm restrictors, 2015 pipes, spec tires, etc. then so be it. This is nothing more than a grass roots, ground level approach at creating and keeping a spec class alive. The drivers who race here locally do not need to meet any organizations specific rules to run club races. When it comes to bigger or sanctioned races hosted by GLARC, the racers can always opt out of the rules specified and run their own rules so long as any one attending from out of the area knows this in advance.
Thought's? Ideas?
Last edited by Danny A.; 12-03-2017 at 12:36 PM.
12-03-2017, 11:58 AM
#26
I know what killed the 235, the rules set by a manufacturer and bypassed by the same manufacturer. On several EC's teamdrivers had the newest cars and engines no one else could get their hands on. Once a shop owner had the new car a week before the EC and was running the car on the EC but was told by the manufacturer that he was not alowed to race the car. Ofcourse this guy did not care about it.
Also on engines there were strict rules about port heights and the funny thing is that commercial engines had lower ports than the limit. And then there was also the rule no grinding/modifications alowed.... On a EC teamdrivers had access to a new type of engine, due a different bore/stroke these engines had more performance with the same port heights.
People were tired that the manufacturer was always one step ahead than the market and other brands. And yes, with the 4wd populair in Asia, 5 port and even a 7 port engines and Group-C bodies it became a mess...
Also on engines there were strict rules about port heights and the funny thing is that commercial engines had lower ports than the limit. And then there was also the rule no grinding/modifications alowed.... On a EC teamdrivers had access to a new type of engine, due a different bore/stroke these engines had more performance with the same port heights.
People were tired that the manufacturer was always one step ahead than the market and other brands. And yes, with the 4wd populair in Asia, 5 port and even a 7 port engines and Group-C bodies it became a mess...
12-03-2017, 12:23 PM
#27
Roelof,
It was a bigger mess in Europe than it was here in the states.... tsk tsk... what a shame.
It was a bigger mess in Europe than it was here in the states.... tsk tsk... what a shame.
12-03-2017, 12:37 PM
#28
A question to WKloppen, what tires does your organization use?
12-03-2017, 12:47 PM
#29
.
12-03-2017, 12:53 PM
#30
This is exactly the reason why manufacturers and distributors of events and/or should never and I mean never have direct involvement in determining the rules. Sponsoring events is perfectly fine but the continuiety of a class or series can only be guaranteed / executed by independent people who do not get paid direct or indirect by manufacturers.
They make use of the weakness of drivers with their new bling bling stuff making them believe they can win with it. Next thing what happens is the organisers get weak too as the lobby of the manufacturers will never stop. Its their bloodline and you can't blame them for doing so....the rest is history. Its the difference between an all out professional sport and amateur racing. Nothing wrong with both but if you want to keep a class alive you have to start and create it at the bottom and the only people who can do that are organisers with common sense who will not be influenced. Its oh so simple but most of the times difficult to execute.
w.
They make use of the weakness of drivers with their new bling bling stuff making them believe they can win with it. Next thing what happens is the organisers get weak too as the lobby of the manufacturers will never stop. Its their bloodline and you can't blame them for doing so....the rest is history. Its the difference between an all out professional sport and amateur racing. Nothing wrong with both but if you want to keep a class alive you have to start and create it at the bottom and the only people who can do that are organisers with common sense who will not be influenced. Its oh so simple but most of the times difficult to execute.
w.
