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Ceramic Thrust Bearings

Old 11-21-2017, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by fyrstormer
I use ceramic bearings in my clutches because I can run them without lubrication to keep the inside of the clutch from being contaminated. I have ceramic clutch bearings several years old that still work fine, despite being run without lubrication from the moment I installed them.

If you want to use a brass washer instead of a thrust bearing in a Centax clutch, you should use an Oilite bushing instead, because it will supply its own lubrication as it wears-down.
oilite is a great idea in this application. Thing is, it's too brittle and may have longevity issues. Sintered metal here is probably not the way to go.
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Roelof
As with every discussion: is ceramics better?

If it is for the clutch I do not even use a bearing... When does the thrustbearing actually works. Only on the moment the clutch engages. With Idle it runs free due the play and on high revs it is standing still.

Does it need a performance or a light resistance?
No, because when the cluch is engaging there is already a huge slip withthe clutch shoe and bell...
So Because the thrust bearing can fail in a race I eliminate the chance on a failure to zero by replacing the ring with the balls with a brass 10x5 washer with some greese.



See it as a ball less bearing
I just don't like how hot it gets I tried it and like your look at the color of the silver washers they r getting black from the friction and that will happen with any polish or greese anything wares off in a minute
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Old 11-22-2017, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by lil-bump
I've used a brass bushing before. Do you flip the end plates around and use the flat surface without the bearing races? You just need keep track of the wear on the brass bushing thru out it's life span.


Pass you soon...
I face the groove to the brass ring so I can put the greese in the groove.

Originally Posted by ralphierace13
I just don't like how hot it gets I tried it and like your look at the color of the silver washers they r getting black from the friction and that will happen with any polish or greese anything wares off in a minute
Because it is a friction bearing it does create some temperature but it works and works flawless. I have tried a softer brass but that can not withstand the presure the clutch creates. I still want to try ceramics but it is not easy to get a small piece of bar.
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Old 11-22-2017, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ralphierace13
I just don't like how hot it gets I tried it and like your look at the color of the silver washers they r getting black from the friction and that will happen with any polish or greese anything wares off in a minute
Ralph, if you grab a top tier automotive wheel bearing grease with extreme pressure additives. There should be enough in the grove to keep from burning up the washers. That's assuming the tolerance and gap is respectable. I'm curious and may give it a go around when I go through one of my clutch units.

Top tier grease has a GC on the spec label. That's the bearing rating, there is a separate rating for other automotive applications right next to it.
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Old 11-22-2017, 01:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Roelof
I face the groove to the brass ring so I can put the greese in the groove.



Because it is a friction bearing it does create some temperature but it works and works flawless. I have tried a softer brass but that can not withstand the presure the clutch creates. I still want to try ceramics but it is not easy to get a small piece of bar.
It's too much heat on the outer bearing I had it fail on me the outer bearing cause of the heat, buy a ceramic brake pad of a real car it's not thst expensive and u can make your own. Y can't u use just one brass piece as thick as all 3 washers?
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Old 11-22-2017, 05:32 AM
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Why not use a normal bearing? I did.
But the rings work what Roelof mentioned
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Old 11-22-2017, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by mustangkillaz
Ralph, if you grab a top tier automotive wheel bearing grease with extreme pressure additives. There should be enough in the grove to keep from burning up the washers. That's assuming the tolerance and gap is respectable. I'm curious and may give it a go around when I go through one of my clutch units.

Top tier grease has a GC on the spec label. That's the bearing rating, there is a separate rating for other automotive applications right next to it.
I've always used Associated "Black Grease" on my thrust bearing assembly. I finally ran out of the Mugen yellow grease after 4-5 years.
I ran this setup years ago. I just got tired of compensating for the thickness of the Brass bushing as wears and I could not secure a plentiful source of these bushings so I switched back to the conventional bearing. But it does work.

Pass you soon...

Last edited by lil-bump; 11-22-2017 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 11-22-2017, 06:34 AM
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Now what will cause a thrust bearing to fail ?

Clutch not set up right (gap)
lack of grease
Heat
Dirt
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Old 11-22-2017, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by ralphierace13
It's too much heat on the outer bearing I had it fail on me the outer bearing cause of the heat, buy a ceramic brake pad of a real car it's not thst expensive and u can make your own. Y can't u use just one brass piece as thick as all 3 washers?
One brass piece will not work because there is a rotating part and a non rotating part and that needs a sliding part in between. Clutchbearings do fail from time to time, I have 25 cent 5x10x4 bearings so I can replace them as often as I want (and still try to use them as long as possible...).
More heat is made with a clutch with some slip than with the brass ring. Most important with the normal bearings is that you have to lube them from time to time, a thinge many people forget.

I do not think ceramic brakepads will work because brakepads are not made to have a low friction But we have figured out that steel plates with a DLC coating and a creamic based brass must give the right setup for a good ball less thrustbearing. By the way, google to "thrust washer" and your eyes will be opened.
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:59 AM
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Default clutch set up ?

Hey guys I didn't want to start a whole other thread so am sure you guys that have a deep knowledge will most likely give some good advice, but in the following video the guy states to shim your clutch gap and end play always behind the clutch bell and behind the flywheel and here I always thought you can use shims behind the thrust bearing.

And has anyone use or have this clutch gauge he is using ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBH6VtlJGQE
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Old 11-22-2017, 09:35 AM
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He has a point by not using gap shims at the thrust bearing but I doubt it is that good noticable. Used shims are always deformed and can give that spring effect.
One important thing he did not show is when you push on the collar you have to pull out the crankshaft.

That tool is expensive and made by Xceed (Serpent), if you know someone with a lathe ye could make an adapter like that and for less than 20 dollar you can find a digital dial.

Also the shims is wise to look arround on ebay/alibaba, bags with 100pcs of 1 thickness can be found for a few dollar. Get them in several sizes and you do not have to re-use them.

Regarding the endplay, too much endplay is killing the thrust bearing. When the clutch is engaging the ring with the balls needs to re-locate the grooves of the rings with the possibillity to get damaged.
Sadly you do need some endplay due the expansion of the clutchbell because the heat but a zero endplay is possible by adding a spring with the endplay shims. I was searching for a suitable spring and found a small wave spring.



I have found a thin wave spring with a 5mm hole. You need to set the endplay to 0.4~0.5mm and add this small spring. It will push the clutchbell from the shoe and push the thrust bearing to zero play. Some people use a normal 0.1mm shimm and bemnd it a bit hollow to act like a spring.

With this saying, it is also important that the normal bearings can slide freely over the crankshaft so I always oil the crankshaft. You also have to check the end tip of the crankshaft and the beginning of the clutch top piece (holding the thrust bearing). By screwing them tight together a small edge of deformation can show up preventing the bearings to slide over the shaft.
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Old 11-22-2017, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Roelof
He has a point by not using gap shims at the thrust bearing but I doubt it is that good noticable. Used shims are always deformed and can give that spring effect.
One important thing he did not show is when you push on the collar you have to pull out the crankshaft.

That tool is expensive and made by Xceed (Serpent), if you know someone with a lathe ye could make an adapter like that and for less than 20 dollar you can find a digital dial.

Also the shims is wise to look arround on ebay/alibaba, bags with 100pcs of 1 thickness can be found for a few dollar. Get them in several sizes and you do not have to re-use them.

Regarding the endplay, too much endplay is killing the thrust bearing. When the clutch is engaging the ring with the balls needs to re-locate the grooves of the rings with the possibillity to get damaged.
Sadly you do need some endplay due the expansion of the clutchbell because the heat but a zero endplay is possible by adding a spring with the endplay shims. I was searching for a suitable spring and found a small wave spring.



I have found a thin wave spring with a 5mm hole. You need to set the endplay to 0.4~0.5mm and add this small spring. It will push the clutchbell from the shoe and push the thrust bearing to zero play. Some people use a normal 0.1mm shimm and bemnd it a bit hollow to act like a spring.

With this saying, it is also important that the normal bearings can slide freely over the crankshaft so I always oil the crankshaft. You also have to check the end tip of the crankshaft and the beginning of the clutch top piece (holding the thrust bearing). By screwing them tight together a small edge of deformation can show up preventing the bearings to slide over the shaft.
WOW Roelof great write up/post thank you very much and I never thought about changing out the shims but it looks like I will be buying a bag of new ones like you state.

Question is when do you change out the shims with new ones ? every 3 or 4 tanks of running ?
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Old 11-22-2017, 10:45 AM
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0.3mm and thicker shims do keep their shape quite well, the thinner ones can be easilly misformed.

Recently at a Dutch shop I did find 0.2 and 0.25mm shims in bags of 100pcs so now it is much easy to build up a clutch with fresh shims. Basically I use only fresh shims when do a rebuild of the clutch wih a fresh shoe and once in a while a fresh spring. For springs I always use the hard ones that gives the clutch more push. I also use Belleville washers as a clutch spring, I have a few hundred of them of which the most still need to be seized down to fit the clutch..
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Old 11-22-2017, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BigC2007
Hey guys I didn't want to start a whole other thread so am sure you guys that have a deep knowledge will most likely give some good advice, but in the following video the guy states to shim your clutch gap and end play always behind the clutch bell and behind the flywheel and here I always thought you can use shims behind the thrust bearing.

And has anyone use or have this clutch gauge he is using ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBH6VtlJGQE
Ralph has a micrometer like that. It works a lot easier. He said that if he ever was to lose it, he’s quit Racing, lol!
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by GrandeGixxer
Ralph has a micrometer like that. It works a lot easier. He said that if he ever was to lose it, he’s quit Racing, lol!
Ha Ralph will never give up racing, its in his blood.
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