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Universal Starting Setup - How to.

Old 12-05-2015, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by 30Tooth
Thank you, if you don't mind could you take a pic of the front axle taken from the side like that pic and another from the front with the arms straight?
Front end isn't together yet. I refuse to post dirty pics...I came from electric racing, it's a personal thing

I will have it together in a bit.
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Old 12-05-2015, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Socket
Front end isn't together yet. I refuse to post dirty pics...I came from electric racing, it's a personal thing

I will have it together in a bit.
Ha! I felt bad for sharing those dirty pics of my buggy's front end but I have low standards haha.
Take your time and thanks for your and My ST RR Evo cooperation.
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Old 12-05-2015, 04:38 PM
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If you guys don't mind, happened to be cleaning my car.

At a ride height of 28mm and 1 dot down, the front arms come down at an angle towards the wheels. Not sure if you can get them to be level... The drive shaft is also at an angle in relation to the arms, which in this orientation will give less(?) plunge.

As far as the rear goes, when I tried to make the arms parallel at 28mm with the diff outdrive lower than the wheel axle, I end up with ST_RR Evo's "consistent" setup. I also found this setup to be easy to drive.
Attached Thumbnails Universal Starting Setup - How to.-20151205_142342.jpg   Universal Starting Setup - How to.-20151205_142543.jpg  
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Old 12-06-2015, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by 30Tooth
Hope it helps, I have other ideas to cut down outdrive wear, they work in tandem with inpuressa ideas

You're right I was thinking the other way. Another thing, how much caster are you using?
I guess you can see by the photos that were posted that there is a lot axle sweep front and rear. i don't think adjusting the wheelbase can fix that. The caster blocks included in the kit are 17.5 °. That is what is shown on inpuressa 's car. You can barely read it. I'm testing the optional 20° degree caster blocks on my car. That sweeps the front axle back a little more.

I don't know if you are aware that the D815 has dog bones in the center driveline and where the bones enter the front and rear diffs, they are booted. From the beginning I've greased them. Those pins last forever. I probably replace the pins on other end (center diff side) of the same bones 10 - 20 times for each time I replace the front / rear diff side of the bone. I'm not sure what the wear rate would be for non greased pins going to the front/rear diffs, but I'm thinking boots on all outdrives would be nice so I could grease everything. Then again there is that thick grease I'm going to look into.
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Old 12-06-2015, 01:32 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by inpuressa
I use Tamiya anti-wear grease on my outdrives for the past four cars that I've owned, and all of them had minimal wear. This grease if super thick and won't fling out(none on brake disks either). I just dab a tiny bit on the contact points and clean it out after every day of running. Yes, some dirt does get on, but the grease is still there. I'm sure they will slow down the wear process. Try it out if want to
What's the part number for this grease and who sells it?
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Old 12-06-2015, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by inpuressa
If you guys don't mind, happened to be cleaning my car.

At a ride height of 28mm and 1 dot down, the front arms come down at an angle towards the wheels. Not sure if you can get them to be level... The drive shaft is also at an angle in relation to the arms, which in this orientation will give less(?) plunge.

As far as the rear goes, when I tried to make the arms parallel at 28mm with the diff outdrive lower than the wheel axle, I end up with ST_RR Evo's "consistent" setup. I also found this setup to be easy to drive.
That's nice of you, thanks.

I think you can get them a bit more level, use both hub shims in the top bushing, that will lower the upright and make them a bit closer, like the D812 had. It will change droop and ride height so take that into account. Yes, less plunge at extension, the car will want to roll less in turns and push the wheels down everywhere else.

I've checked some setups and the combinations are confusing me. Standard setup is 1 dot up in the plate and two dot down in the hub, the setup sheet image presents the arm and axle parallel. Can you run both arms and axles parallel in more than one combination?

Originally Posted by My ST-RR EVO
I guess you can see by the photos that were posted that there is a lot axle sweep front and rear. i don't think adjusting the wheelbase can fix that. The caster blocks included in the kit are 17.5 °. That is what is shown on inpuressa 's car. You can barely read it. I'm testing the optional 20° degree caster blocks on my car. That sweeps the front axle back a little more.

I don't know if you are aware that the D815 has dog bones in the center driveline and where the bones enter the front and rear diffs, they are booted. From the beginning I've greased them. Those pins last forever. I probably replace the pins on other end (center diff side) of the same bones 10 - 20 times for each time I replace the front / rear diff side of the bone. I'm not sure what the wear rate would be for non greased pins going to the front/rear diffs, but I'm thinking boots on all outdrives would be nice so I could grease everything. Then again there is that thick grease I'm going to look into.
Indeed lots of axle sweep, particularly the front. Never seen something like it. Yep I saw the 17.5º caster blocks, was wondering if changing caster changed sweep and you tell me bad news. Changing caster shouldn't change axle sweep ever. If the caster block messes with axle sweep then front wheelbase adjustments become mandatory.

Positive on the center dog bones. I once used thick grease in the front and rear outdrives but it turned into abrasive compound when the dust got into the outdrives. I am in the process of designing outdrive sleeves to compliment boots on the wheel side. When they are done I will send some for you guys.

This grease inpuressa?
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Old 12-06-2015, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by My ST-RR EVO
I guess you can see by the photos that were posted that there is a lot axle sweep front and rear. i don't think adjusting the wheelbase can fix that. The caster blocks included in the kit are 17.5 °. That is what is shown on inpuressa 's car. You can barely read it. I'm testing the optional 20° degree caster blocks on my car. That sweeps the front axle back a little more.

I don't know if you are aware that the D815 has dog bones in the center driveline and where the bones enter the front and rear diffs, they are booted. From the beginning I've greased them. Those pins last forever. I probably replace the pins on other end (center diff side) of the same bones 10 - 20 times for each time I replace the front / rear diff side of the bone. I'm not sure what the wear rate would be for non greased pins going to the front/rear diffs, but I'm thinking boots on all outdrives would be nice so I could grease everything. Then again there is that thick grease I'm going to look into.

Well, after reading this, I am pulling the front back off the chassis and greasing the front dog bone going into the front pinion. I didn't last time I repinned it, and it ate the pin pretty damn fast.

edit: I also just greased the rear pin as well.

Last edited by Socket; 12-06-2015 at 08:21 AM.
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Old 12-06-2015, 09:46 AM
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I have been watching this thread with some interest, and finally decided to take a look at my buggy and try to understand the method more fully. From my understanding the axles and arms should be parallel with the ground when the buggy is at the desired ride height. Is this correct? I have not checked what my arms look like when my buggy is sitting at ride height, but on the rear my drive shafts are parallel with the arms. On the front I think I can make my drive shafts parallel to the arms if I put the hubs in the low position. I am a little confused as to whether the arm should be parallel front to back though (along the hinge pin). It seems like in order to have kickup/antisquat they couldnt be.
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Old 12-06-2015, 09:51 AM
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Running 17.5 front blocks. I have the 15's and the 20's. Haven't tried them yet.
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Old 12-06-2015, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by IOP_Racer
I have been watching this thread with some interest, and finally decided to take a look at my buggy and try to understand the method more fully. From my understanding the axles and arms should be parallel with the ground when the buggy is at the desired ride height. Is this correct? I have not checked what my arms look like when my buggy is sitting at ride height, but on the rear my drive shafts are parallel with the arms. On the front I think I can make my drive shafts parallel to the arms if I put the hubs in the low position. I am a little confused as to whether the arm should be parallel front to back though (along the hinge pin). It seems like in order to have kickup/antisquat they couldnt be.
1) correct, start with the arms and axles parallel. If it is too high, a mm or two lower won't be too bad, over that and a correction to have parallel arms to ground is necessary. You will introduce a bit of axle bind but having parallel arms helps offsetting the issues presented by axle bind.
2) right, front and rear arms should be parallel to ground.

Thanks Socket, by the looks of it using certain front wheel base and caster blocks might make the axle rub the spring holder. Can you measure length of where the hinge pin passes through the any spare available caster block? I have a hunch

Last edited by 30Tooth; 12-06-2015 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 12-06-2015, 01:54 PM
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Thanks for the response. I drive the Serpent 811 2.1 which does not have adjustable rear hub height or adjustable arm height (other than kickup), so it may be a little difficult to get parallel arms in the rear. I do have the LRC toe block which seems like it can make an impact in getting the arms level. I am going to mess with it tomorrow though. You are stating that it is ok to alter my ride height by a millimeter or two to get parallel arms? Or that if my ride height is a millimeter or two off from making the arms parallel it is ok? Lastly, I think you may have mis-read my last question. I was asking if the arms had to be parallel to the ground along the axis of the hinge pin. As if there were no antisquat or kickup on the arm.

Last edited by IOP_Racer; 12-06-2015 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 12-06-2015, 02:20 PM
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So this is definetly some good stuff to read. I worked over my strr today with some of this knowledge and feel it is as close as I can get it. I looked at my d8t tte and found the rear axle sweep to be extremely bad and has no easy fix for wheelbase adjustment. Between the axle sweep and a parallel axle which do you feel manipulates the car most? In my mind I think that the sweep is more crucial or am I wrong?
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Old 12-06-2015, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by IOP_Racer
Thanks for the response. I drive the Serpent 811 2.1 which does not have adjustable rear hub height or adjustable arm height (other than kickup), so it may be a little difficult to get parallel arms in the rear. I do have the LRC toe block which seems like it can make an impact in getting the arms level. I am going to mess with it tomorrow though. You are stating that it is ok to alter my ride height by a millimeter or two to get parallel arms? Or that if my ride height is a millimeter or two off from making the arms parallel it is ok? Lastly, I think you may have mis-read my last question. I was asking if the arms had to be parallel to the ground along the axis of the hinge pin. As if there were no antisquat or kickup on the arm.
Once you mentioned shims in the upright I knew you had the S811
About the LRC block and the S811, from what I remember the axles were parallel with the arms out of the box so you are set on that side. My google-fu is lacking here, I can't seem to find the part in question, guessing by the name it lower the rear inner hinge pins right? You don't want that you try raising ride height to have parallel arms it's fine to have them a bit angled. What I'm trying to say is that it's best to run the car at parallel arms than to run at an arbitrary ride height number.
Sorry about that, it's parallel like seeing the car longitudinally not sideways.

Originally Posted by ROSCOE
So this is definetly some good stuff to read. I worked over my strr today with some of this knowledge and feel it is as close as I can get it. I looked at my d8t tte and found the rear axle sweep to be extremely bad and has no easy fix for wheelbase adjustment. Between the axle sweep and a parallel axle which do you feel manipulates the car most? In my mind I think that the sweep is more crucial or am I wrong?
Thank you.
Yep the geometry on the Kyosho cars is what sets them apart, Kanai-san knows what he's doing
You're right, with axle sweep the complete axle/CVD/universal tries to straighten itself. That means more friction and decreased drivetrain efficiency if we are talking about sweep, axle plunge adds another force we mentioned earlier in this thread. Sweep is a given with rear toe adjustments and I am not much worried about it but front axle sweep is a no-no, front wheels go up and down and also steer. That's too much angle, the simpler the better and that's why I advocate this method of letting the suspension do it's job and the drivetrain it's job.

Objective: Tuning without rear toe without messing with wheelbase.
Now that the topic is rear axle sweep.
I'm testing the theory of toe and wheelbase working in conjunction. Picture this mentally, any time one changes toe in the rear, the wheelbase changes too. For example my buggy's rear toe can be changed from two to four degrees, three being the middle ground. I would start with three degrees of toe and middle wheelbase in the rear and for an increase or decrease of toe I change wheelbase by one mm. The car is already set up that way, just need to see what happened with the T/B servo and change exhaust seal.

Last edited by 30Tooth; 12-18-2016 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 12-06-2015, 05:19 PM
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Thanks for your clarification! I have not tried the LRC toe block, but I think it lowers the inner hinge pins. Similar to what everyone was doing on the RC8.2 with the Avid inserts. I will know for sure when I take a look at my buggy more tomorrow, but I think you are right in that the arms and axles are parallel. On the front hubs I noticed all of the set up sheets have the hub in the high position, but I think the axles will be closer to parallel with the front arms if the hub is in the lower position. Could there be another reason everyone runs the hubs in the high position that I am not aware of? Or is it simply a matter of playing copy cat?

Edit: You mentioned I do not want to lower the rear hinge pins, does the same apply for the front? Should I try to avoid changing the height of the front hinge pins to get arms level (if need be)? Sorry for all of the questions..

Last edited by IOP_Racer; 12-06-2015 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 12-06-2015, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by IOP_Racer
Thanks for your clarification! I have not tried the LRC toe block, but I think it lowers the inner hinge pins. Similar to what everyone was doing on the RC8.2 with the Avid inserts. I will know for sure when I take a look at my buggy more tomorrow, but I think you are right in that the arms and axles are parallel. On the front hubs I noticed all of the set up sheets have the hub in the high position, but I think the axles will be closer to parallel with the front arms if the hub is in the lower position. Could there be another reason everyone runs the hubs in the high position that I am not aware of? Or is it simply a matter of playing copy cat?
You're welcome.

If it lowers the hinge pins then you will have to run more ride height to have parallel arms. I wouldn't try that right away.
About the hub shims, possibly to raise or drop the roll center primarily without knowing what more it affects. Be aware that changing hinge pin holders or hub height requires a change in roll center height. Please report back if your car needs further setup tuning.

Edit: no need to be sorry, the front is normally lower than the rear, sometimes 5mm. That gives you freedom to test lower and higher arms. If the roll center is corrected after changing arm height, lower arm produces more overall front grip (sometimes works against the rear) and higher arm less overall steering (I find this to work consistently better with my car). Changing a hub shim will likely need to redo all the setup, except shocks maybe but for me it was more than worth it.
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