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Which setup change first

Which setup change first

Old 01-27-2014, 12:42 AM
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Default Which setup change first

I read many articles about setups and tried many things so far. So I have knowledge about setups but don't know the order of the changes I should do in specific situations. For example I need better offpower steering for a track (I assume I have the best tires for the track). I can do many things to fix it , thinner shock oil front, more toe out, more ackermann, thinner sway bar front, less caster, roll center changes for more roll on front etc....
My problem is I don't know which one to try first . Does anyone have course or algoritm for setup changes ?
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Old 01-27-2014, 07:22 AM
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I can say how I do it, I'm no authority on the matter but here's my 2cents.
Spring balance - shock oil adjustment - tires - droop / roll centers / Ackermann / Camber.
For start do this, or better yet use my spreadsheet to calculate Spring Frequency - Hz, you want that number to match front and rear. Then it's the shock oil and tires for your conditions and after that you can change the small stuff like camber link positions and such.
If you want to disregard all I've said then try more rear droop and a shorter rear link. On power steering will suffer!
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Old 01-27-2014, 01:48 PM
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Any other inputs ?
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Old 01-27-2014, 01:54 PM
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Start outside and work your way in. The farther in you go, the finer the adjustment becomes.
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Old 01-27-2014, 02:36 PM
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interesting approach, never heard of it before. thanks. Is it allways true? for example ackermann change is near center but have a big impact.
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Old 01-27-2014, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoese37 View Post
Start outside and work your way in. The farther in you go, the finer the adjustment becomes.
Wow, I would give the car manufacturer's more credit than this! They spend years designing and testing a car and you proceed to put everything in all the outer holes. Stock setups are normally good to start with, depending on how much testing the manufacturer did and your driving style.

It's all about balance. There is no algorithm for setting up a car because it all depends on how the car is set up before you make changes. For example, if the car has a light front swaybar or thin shock oil but has 4 degrees of toe in and it pushes, it would be best to use less toe in than the first two options. If you have a well-known car the process to get it to your liking is fairly straightforward as long as you use a setup guide such as JQ's THE Guide; but in order to get the setup as perfect as the car design's limit, it will take a ton of testing time to understand everything completely. As long as you're not trying to design or re-engineer a car, it's not necessary to know how roll centers work, theory vs. reality, etc. as long as you know the basics that the setup guides suggest.
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Old 01-27-2014, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by 8ight-racer View Post
Wow, I would give the car manufacturer's more credit than this! They spend years designing and testing a car and you proceed to put everything in all the outer holes.
That's not what he is saying.

He means that things which are further out on the car have the biggest effect. For instance, tires are the furthest outside things on the car and thus have the most impact (I would say that's true) while things closer to the center of the car have less impact. This I would dispute since diffs can be a HUGE adjustment yet are the most inboard.
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Old 01-27-2014, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by 8ight-racer View Post
Wow, I would give the car manufacturer's more credit than this! They spend years designing and testing a car and you proceed to put everything in all the outer holes. Stock setups are normally good to start with, depending on how much testing the manufacturer did and your driving style.

It's all about balance. There is no algorithm for setting up a car because it all depends on how the car is set up before you make changes. For example, if the car has a light front swaybar or thin shock oil but has 4 degrees of toe in and it pushes, it would be best to use less toe in than the first two options. If you have a well-known car the process to get it to your liking is fairly straightforward as long as you use a setup guide such as JQ's THE Guide; but in order to get the setup as perfect as the car design's limit, it will take a ton of testing time to understand everything completely. As long as you're not trying to design or re-engineer a car, it's not necessary to know how roll centers work, theory vs. reality, etc. as long as you know the basics that the setup guides suggest.
I mean by starting with the adjustments you can do that are closer the outside of the car, the more drastic the change will be. Making changes that are more near the center require more finesse because they can get out of hand quickly.

Originally Posted by wingracer View Post
That's not what he is saying.

He means that things which are further out on the car have the biggest effect. For instance, tires are the furthest outside things on the car and thus have the most impact (I would say that's true) while things closer to the center of the car have less impact. This I would dispute since diffs can be a HUGE adjustment yet are the most inboard.
This guy knows what m saying. I was referring to suspension tuning, not driveline.
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Old 01-27-2014, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by wingracer View Post
That's not what he is saying.

He means that things which are further out on the car have the biggest effect. For instance, tires are the furthest outside things on the car and thus have the most impact (I would say that's true) while things closer to the center of the car have less impact. This I would dispute since diffs can be a HUGE adjustment yet are the most inboard.
That makes more sense. Tires, no question they are the most important, but the thread starter said the tires are good for his track. But I think there are a lot of exceptions to this rule. Moving the rear link on rear tower vs. hub has a similar effect, for example. One example I can agree with this analogy is with is outboard vs. inboard rear toe in. Overall toe in angle constant, more outboard toe has a greater effect on traction than inboard.
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Old 01-27-2014, 04:23 PM
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Generally, you should pinpoint whats happening and why.

Is the front end pushing and not gripping? Then work on sway bars, springs, etc. Is the car balanced but lacking steering? Start with caster, ackerman, etc.

If you don't know what's happening or the car is simply way out of line, start with the easier things to change, so you can go back and forth quickly without loosing much tuning time.
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Old 01-27-2014, 04:48 PM
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I think the set-up order matters more so when you are setting it initially...meaning let's say you just finished building or doing maintenance on your buggy and now you are ready to make sure it still has the same settings that you last ran on OR you want to try a new set up because you weren't pleased. I normally follow the sequence that's in the HUDY guide in this scenario. Once i'm on the track and i've determined tire A is the best for this surface I then continue to drive the buggy to see what I don't like about the buggy's performance. At that point I don't really look at the correction attempt as a sequence more so than pinpointing what the buggy is or isn't doing and trying to find out the best adjustment based on the issue. Just change one thing at a time and make sure you get enough drive time to really feel if it made a difference AND most importantly make a note of exactly what you changed to and FROM. From there my next step would be to try one more change so now I'm at a total of 2 changes. I normally don't do any more than 2 changes. Every aspect of change will affect another characteristic of the car's drive. I also compare notes from the HUDY guide and the JQ Guide and make an educated decision based on what I feel would remedy my issue based on a comparative study of both documents. I think the best advice I've gotten so far was to start with the box set up and experiment on your own as opposed to trying all the Factory driver's set-ups. Their driving styles may be no where near yours and you are the only one that knows that FEELING you ultimately want.
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Old 01-27-2014, 05:27 PM
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JQ Guide is a good reference, much better than hudy guide, its more hands on and what he feels as opposed to applying theory.

Now my 2 cents, I have been doing this since the age of 14, on and off, there is no such thing as a bible, or the manual or whatever you want to call it.

It's all about having first hand experience, I used to spend so much time to perfecting the setup of my cars always knowing it can be better, but what it really came down to, is common sense.

I was assuming that the setup lacked this, and lacked that, but had I practiced more on the track and stopped messing about with setup, then I would come to know that not even one setup would overcome this particular section, other than braking earlier or easing of the throttle earlier.

Having switched the logic I used to follow, setup to be fast, too practise to be fast, the whole approach changed, now that gives you much less things to figure out overall.

First of all you would understand that your current setup is either completely off the charts or just needs minor tweaks.

Second of all your not going to gamble with tires if 90% of the drivers use the same tire brand and or tread style so less guessing and getting straight to the point.

Third point from my own experience is the track surface, my first point would be to tackle the setup of diffs, I would always have 3 solid base diff setups for any track conditions I have drove on, and these are 3 most common ones, high traction, low traction, medium traction. When I know what kind of traction I am running on , I also work my shocks rebound hence forth the lower rebound for high traction, and higher rebound for low traction.

4th point would revolve on outside temps as this affects the shock oil selection as well as the tire compound choice.

5th on out would be the most common features, cambers, droop, Rheight etc.

You really do not need to go with any logic or order, it will become first hand language to you once you have had enough track variation experience, you would always know that this is the base setup for these track conditions and would most probably be 70% dialled, the rest is just to make your car balanced out to your driving style.

Read Jared Tebos blog, he does not understand theory, he tunes by feel and first hand experience.

Try it yourself, take one tune option put it to the lowest tunable option test drive it and note feedback, then try it out to the extreme opposite. If you have the time to do this for every tunable option on the car, then you will be in position to prioritize, which has the most affect and least affect.

To answer your question in simple terms, tune your extreme variables first to be close to target, than fine tune with minor adjustments, if you have the time to do so after you have mastered well enough the track to know what else you may need.
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Old 01-28-2014, 01:22 AM
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Thanks for sharing your opinions guys.
After these inputs I conclude, everybody has it's own way, there isn't such one right algoritm and it's crucial to begin with a neutral-factory setup to not have to change every parameter .
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Old 01-29-2014, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by shesha View Post
JQ Guide is a good reference, much better than hudy guide, its more hands on and what he feels as opposed to applying theory.

Now my 2 cents, I have been doing this since the age of 14, on and off, there is no such thing as a bible, or the manual or whatever you want to call it.

It's all about having first hand experience, I used to spend so much time to perfecting the setup of my cars always knowing it can be better, but what it really came down to, is common sense.

I was assuming that the setup lacked this, and lacked that, but had I practiced more on the track and stopped messing about with setup, then I would come to know that not even one setup would overcome this particular section, other than braking earlier or easing of the throttle earlier.

Having switched the logic I used to follow, setup to be fast, too practise to be fast, the whole approach changed, now that gives you much less things to figure out overall.

First of all you would understand that your current setup is either completely off the charts or just needs minor tweaks.

Second of all your not going to gamble with tires if 90% of the drivers use the same tire brand and or tread style so less guessing and getting straight to the point.

Third point from my own experience is the track surface, my first point would be to tackle the setup of diffs, I would always have 3 solid base diff setups for any track conditions I have drove on, and these are 3 most common ones, high traction, low traction, medium traction. When I know what kind of traction I am running on , I also work my shocks rebound hence forth the lower rebound for high traction, and higher rebound for low traction.

4th point would revolve on outside temps as this affects the shock oil selection as well as the tire compound choice.

5th on out would be the most common features, cambers, droop, Rheight etc.

You really do not need to go with any logic or order, it will become first hand language to you once you have had enough track variation experience, you would always know that this is the base setup for these track conditions and would most probably be 70% dialled, the rest is just to make your car balanced out to your driving style.

Read Jared Tebos blog, he does not understand theory, he tunes by feel and first hand experience.

Try it yourself, take one tune option put it to the lowest tunable option test drive it and note feedback, then try it out to the extreme opposite. If you have the time to do this for every tunable option on the car, then you will be in position to prioritize, which has the most affect and least affect.

To answer your question in simple terms, tune your extreme variables first to be close to target, than fine tune with minor adjustments, if you have the time to do so after you have mastered well enough the track to know what else you may need.
great insight!
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:11 AM
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first off learn the theory then learn how to apply it to your driving style
this can only realy be done with on track testing.every thing else is just a
view point or opinion, and may or may not work for you. the reason there
are 2 things that make a car handel how it does setup and driver input.
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