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Old 04-12-2014, 01:16 AM
  #991  
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Originally Posted by Swaybarz
Kingpin is the inclination of the axis that wheels turn on. So when you change kingpin plates, you are not changing caster. If you look at the different plates you Can see the different locations of the front vertical pillow ball, and how they move in relation to the two mounting screws.

When I talked yo Reno, he said, "kingpin is acting a bit like caster. More kingpin makes the car smoother around neutral but more onpower steering."
Hope this helps.
This is what Reno told me also. I had a friend who confirmed this when he ran the 6 degree inclination plates. Here's his feedback... They basically change the front steering balance at corner entry, mid and exit.

As far as driving feel goes on track:
1. Stock inclination had less steering going into the corner and mid corner, but pull out like crazy. Some liked this steering balance.
2. The 6 degree inclinations had more steering on corner entry and mid and less steering on exit. Some prefer this steering balance. (Most of the Pros were using 6 degree incline plates last I saw)

As far as what the differences are physically between the 6,10,16 inclination plates. It changes the how much the tires lay down in relation to each other. In relation to each other, the left and right tires have different cambers the higher you go in axle inclination.

1. With 0 inclination (XB9 stock) the rate the tires camber in as you turn the wheel are more or less equal.
2. With 6 degree inclination plates (XB8 option) the rate the inner tire cambers in as you turn in greater than the outer wheel.
3. With 16 degree inclination plates (XB8 stock) the rate the inner wheel cambers in as you turn is even greater than the outer wheel. The inner wheel really angles into the corner and the outer wheel actually angles out when compared to 0 or 6 degree inclination.
4. The 16 inline plate will have the shortest upper arm and the 6 incline plates will have the longest upper arm.

Last edited by razo125; 04-12-2014 at 03:13 AM. Reason: added another difference item #4
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Old 04-12-2014, 02:16 AM
  #992  
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Thats a better explanation of what I was trying to say.

I found the 14 degree kingpin to be very aggressive in the corner. You really have to make sure you don't over steer the car. The lower the inclination the less aggressive the steering in the corner but they turned into the corner better
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Old 04-12-2014, 02:19 AM
  #993  
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Great topic and I wish I could test the active camber adjustments also. Some people just want to know what works, but I always like to ask why also... Hopefully the pro's can leave some feedback on what works and why... I'm not a pro, but I'm a semi pro armchair engineer. here's my thinking and experience on the adjustments in red below....

Originally Posted by TIX
I will honestly say I could be wrong. But that's the result I came up with in testing.

There are a few things that we are able to change on the xray that the setup guides don't offer an details on. I've made my own assessments of what they do. But id love to hear it from the pros.

Active caster;
We are able to change the amount of active caster the buggy has by changing the angle of the top arm. What's the effect of running more or less.
1. If the upper pin is parallel with the lower inner pin there is no active caster and the caster will behave like a standard front suspension (XB9, Kyosho, Losi, etc)
2. If the upper pin is angled forward in relation to the lower pin, the castor angle will decrease as the suspension compresses and increase as the suspension unloads
3. If the upper pin is angled back in relation to the lower pin, the castor angle will increase as the suspension compresses and decrease as the suspension unloads.

I believe most setups including stock have the upper arm pin angled forward. I can only comment in theory, on what this does as far as feel on the track since I have not tested this. But in theory active castor can give the best of both worlds when done right. With the upper pin angled forward like example #2. I'm gonna guess on corner entry as the front end dives the caster will decrease giving more steering. On corner exit (on power) the front suspension unloads and the active castor will increase giving more steering.


Lower roll center;
Changing your roll center at the lower hinge pin plates as opposed to the upper link.
For the sake of comparison, let's assume you keep the same ride height and the front lower arms are level. Changing roll center on the upper pin would not change the ride height or lower arm angle. Changing the roll center at the lower hinge pin not only changes roll center but also changes the angle of the lower arm slightly.
1. Lowering that pin would lower roll center, and lower the mounting point of the arm on the inner pin. The arms would angle up more.
2. Raising that pin would raise roll center, and raise the mounting point of the arm on the inner pin. The arms would angle down more.
The difference in arm angle by changing the pin height is probably not gonna be felt by a regular driver like me. But I do know if the arms are running too far from level, the car handles funny (traction rolls, unstable etc) This adjustment will change the arm angle by a minute amount.


Hinge pin width;
We see it more on the xb8 with guys running 1 Bushing in narrowing the hinge pin width. What's it effect.
Hinge pin width changes track width. Narrow width makes the car steer more aggressively and less stable, more width does the opposite. I think Jason B mentioned that in an earlier post.

It also sometimes changes the dogbone plunge which affects how the suspension binds and stiffens/frees up when on and off power.


King pin angle as we've already said. There's a few more but these were all I could think of at the moment
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Old 04-12-2014, 02:43 AM
  #994  
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Originally Posted by TIX
Thats a better explanation of what I was trying to say.

I found the 14 degree kingpin to be very aggressive in the corner. You really have to make sure you don't over steer the car. The lower the inclination the less aggressive the steering in the corner but they turned into the corner better
That's what I've heard also. I've only driven the 14s but did notice I have to "unwind" the steering a bit as I exit or else the car can hook once I get on the throttle. I really liked the 14s, but based on feedback from Rallyebmx the 6s feel more balanced because he has more turn in with less steering input and can just crank the wheels on steering exit to hold the race line. The 6's have a longer upper arm link also which may be another reason why it feels less aggressive.

He's tested the 6s on medium and low grip tracks and likes them on both. But I will guess the 14s could be a bit better on lower grip dusty tracks. When your sliding around everywhere you won't feel the agressiveness but will need the extra steering when you need to hold the race line exiting a corner.

The 6 degree plates are on my wish list when I get back to the track. I can't test any of this until summertime.

Last edited by razo125; 04-12-2014 at 03:17 AM.
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Old 04-12-2014, 04:13 AM
  #995  
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I understand the theory of the changes. What I really want to hear the advantages and disadvantages of the changes. Ive tested a lot of the changes and have my own conclusions, but it would be great to hear the positive and negative from the guys that use the changes regularly.

Things like, decreases traction roll, less turn in or more side bite through corners. Like in the hudy book
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Old 04-12-2014, 10:51 AM
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Im new with Xray XB8 2014. Im just wondering is there space for use Team Losi clutch?
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Old 04-12-2014, 03:40 PM
  #997  
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There's room, but you won't move the motor back enough to live up the mesh unless you grind down the collect. Your really better off getting a Werks, M2C or thunder innovation clutch if you want a 4 shoe clutch
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Old 04-12-2014, 05:17 PM
  #998  
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Originally Posted by TIX
I understand the theory of the changes. What I really want to hear the advantages and disadvantages of the changes. Ive tested a lot of the changes and have my own conclusions, but it would be great to hear the positive and negative from the guys that use the changes regularly.

Things like, decreases traction roll, less turn in or more side bite through corners. Like in the hudy book
I'm with you there. Hopefully we get some feedback once the pro's get more experience with the new buggy.
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Old 04-12-2014, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by razo125
I'm with you there. Hopefully we get some feedback once the pro's get more experience with the new buggy.
+2. However, I will say that after running mine today first time out it is pretty damn amazing. Turns and is very precise. Ran 7/7/3 and all screws (full stiff), otherwise stock, and it just plain gets around. I've tried just about everything out there and this car is just fast for me, period - got a JQ WE for sale .
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Old 04-12-2014, 06:17 PM
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M2c 32mm clutch works well on every rc I have put it in.
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Old 04-12-2014, 06:53 PM
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In regards to the Kingpin conclusion statements, I still dont have the option on hand, but here is my feedback driving the xb9 and the xb8 identical setups.

The xb9 I have zero expo on the steering whilst on the xb8 I had to dial in 20% expo on the steering initially to get to grips with the steering, then backed it down to 15%, our track is high grip, with good high flow chicanes as well as sweeping and down corners, so you really get a feel to how the car flows through.
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Old 04-12-2014, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by shesha
In regards to the Kingpin conclusion statements, I still dont have the option on hand, but here is my feedback driving the xb9 and the xb8 identical setups.

The xb9 I have zero expo on the steering whilst on the xb8 I had to dial in 20% expo on the steering initially to get to grips with the steering, then backed it down to 15%, our track is high grip, with good high flow chicanes as well as sweeping and down corners, so you really get a feel to how the car flows through.
Turned negative expo after my very first run on the steering (20%) also on an m12. It will be interesting to see the effect on the track of the 6 degree kingpin.
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Old 04-13-2014, 10:41 AM
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Shout out to Cade, only 2 sec slower than Lutz and King in his qual 3 heat. Even faster than some other big names out there in the other 2 heats of pro buggy. Good Job for only having this car for 2 to 3 weeks. Got some big names with him in the B main.


http://www.liverc.com/view_result_fi...itro_Buggy.xml
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:12 AM
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http://www.teamxray.com/teamxray/pro...-Pin%20-%20Set
Originally Posted by razo125
This is what Reno told me also. I had a friend who confirmed this when he ran the 6 degree inclination plates. Here's his feedback... They basically change the front steering balance at corner entry, mid and exit.

As far as driving feel goes on track:
1. Stock inclination had less steering going into the corner and mid corner, but pull out like crazy. Some liked this steering balance.
2. The 6 degree inclinations had more steering on corner entry and mid and less steering on exit. Some prefer this steering balance. (Most of the Pros were using 6 degree incline plates last I saw)

As far as what the differences are physically between the 6,10,16 inclination plates. It changes the how much the tires lay down in relation to each other. In relation to each other, the left and right tires have different cambers the higher you go in axle inclination.

1. With 0 inclination (XB9 stock) the rate the tires camber in as you turn the wheel are more or less equal.
2. With 6 degree inclination plates (XB8 option) the rate the inner tire cambers in as you turn in greater than the outer wheel.
3. With 16 degree inclination plates (XB8 stock) the rate the inner wheel cambers in as you turn is even greater than the outer wheel. The inner wheel really angles into the corner and the outer wheel actually angles out when compared to 0 or 6 degree inclination.
4. The 16 inline plate will have the shortest upper arm and the 6 incline plates will have the longest upper arm.
Hi.
Does this make sense if you read the text from the old 808 5 degrees kingpin steering blocks
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Old 04-13-2014, 06:07 PM
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I have my 10 degree kingpins on their way, so i'm looking to try them out next weekend and will post up what I find.
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