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Old 11-09-2009, 06:55 PM   #61
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I personally don't care if I have to race the pros. I will tell you honestly that they would have more reason to object than I do! They're going to pass me, and proably pass clean... it doesn't hurt me a bit. On the other hand, I could (unintentionally) change the race order by making a mistake or being in the way at the wrong time.

I've been racing for about 3 years now. I still suck. The best I've ever done was 2nd in a club race... when the fast guys didn't show up.
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Old 11-09-2009, 07:04 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by savage.25 View Post
i dont race RC's but i do race lawnmowers. ..
Now racing lawnmowers sounds like a blast
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Old 11-09-2009, 07:07 PM   #63
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I hate open an Invite. I want to race against those Invite guys to see where i stack up.

Also, some people dont get sponsored because they are fast. Some get it because of what they bring to the table, in means of support for certain products. I am always one of the guys willing to lend a hand to anyone that needs it, and that gets noticed.
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Old 11-09-2009, 08:41 PM   #64
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All I can say if the pros want to race with me, don't bitch when I run into you.
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Old 11-09-2009, 09:48 PM   #65
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Good topic,
One that comes up from time to time. It's an ongoing issue for pretty much everyone that races, hold races, or make up the rules that we racers are governed by. The issue will vary some depending on where you race and the racers you race with. The short of it is, there's no easy solution that corrects all aspects of the issue. If there were, we wouldn't be having this thread.

Local races:

Most racers at this level pretty much know each other and their respective skill and will play by the rules so to speak. Sandbagging usually isn't much of an issue, though does happen. When it does, your race buddies usually give you enough of a hard time about it that you are guilted into not doing it again.

Regional events:

This is where you see sandbagging start to show up. Usually the event is held at a location other than a local spot and many racers don't race regularly against each other. This makes it much easier for someone that wishes to sandbag a class to do so because most there will not know the difference of wether he/she is or not. The only racers who will know are the racers that know that racer. Maybe they will say something and maybe they won't, but the number of sandbaggers are usually low because it's still a somewhat local race feel.

National type events:

This is where the biggest number of sandbagging offences will occur. Mainly for simular reasons as the regional events, but with a much less likelyhood of being called for it until after the event. By then the damage is done and a thread such as this pops up on the net somewhere.

There are execptions to each, but is basically a pretty general rule of thumb. Lets face it. Not all racers are honest about themselves or others and some racers just have to have a trophy. No system is perfect, though some track/track directors seem to have a better handle on the issue.

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Old 11-09-2009, 09:57 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Zerodefect View Post
Don't make a class for: "Slow guys that duped some dimm witted, up and coming RC company."
Easy there Killer, I am the slow guy that Duped 8 up and coming companies into sponsoring your team
nothing to see here................................
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:05 PM   #67
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Having said all of the above,

What can be done to better handle the issue? The option of having some type of national driver ranking would help. I think NORRCA had your classification on your membership card (I.E. Sportsman, Expert, Novice). ROAR could do that, but not all tracks are ROAR tracks and not every racer carries a ROAR membership. If ever racer did, it would still open the door of how to keep track of it. No easy task.

That would bring it down to the people that put together the series races that are held accross the country (RCPro and JBRL come to mind, I am sure there are others). For the most part I think it might be easier for them to keep tabs on who should be in what class and who has been running one class that now wishes to change classes mid series or the like. Still can be bit of a headache, but is doable. It's not perfect though.

Lastly, I think the racers are the last line of defence. The racers should remind themselves and each other that sandbagging is not ok and not right to do. Sadly as we all know, that is far from perfect. Which would mean that the issue will not go away for good. It will remain a topic for future racers to debate.

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Old 11-09-2009, 10:30 PM   #68
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Changing the way we sort classes,

Rather racers into classes would help in some cases. Yet that has pros and cons to it as well.

Open class:

I like this class format. Reminds me of what racing was when I started many years ago. Kind of a run what you brung class. For me the most fun to run in, but it's not a format that is for everyone. Often times the faster guys pay the price if they have an off day and many racers exchange words about who hit who and who was in who's way. Not ideal. Though the faster racers will usually be put with other faster racers of simular times. Hard to sandbag an open class


This will and has helped to keep the top guys from being in the wrong place at the wrong time with slower, less skilled drivers. These guys are usually racing for a paycheck to some extent. It's pretty easy to pick out the majority of the racers that would make up this class. The down side to that is the racers that on a good day would or could be in that class. Those racers usually end up back in the open class. That is where other racers will site sandbagging. Maybe it is and maybe it is not, but racers need to understand that if a racer doesn't get the invite to the invite class and the only other class being run is the open class, then that is where they go. Is it fair? No, not exactly. It's not a perfect system, but it's what we have.

I'm not a big fan of everyone gets to have their own class to run in. Opens up the door to having way too omany classes to run on a given day. Many times tracks/clubs don't have enough time to run the classes they have. No need to add more. At a minium it's Novice, Sportsman, and Expert. Add in a Pro class if it's a bigger event. Keeps things pretty simple and uniform.

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Old 11-09-2009, 11:05 PM   #69
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Default Problem

So here is the REAL problem. We are all (we being RC racers) a bunch of cheap asses. Everybody wants something done but nobody wants to take the initiative or pay the money for someone elso to do it.

ALL these organizations like AMA etc have fees I am sure. As does ROAR. If ROAR fees were more and all tracks would make you have membership to enter races and/or win prizes it could solve the problem.

I will use something I know about for example. I team rope. The USTRC is the sanctioning body for this sport. Everyone pays a membership, $80 a year, and is rated from 1-10 based on their ability level. Each number has a specific description of this persons ability level. People are evaluated by peers on the local level, and by USTRC employees at bigger events. Your rating is adjusted accordingly. All this is organized on the computer and accessible to any event producer.

The same thing would work in RC, only with fewer ratings. You could go A, B, C. Or Pro, Expert, Int, Novice. Or just Expert, int, nov. Whatever. Anything you do there will always be a wider gap in the middle devision because that is where most people fall. Most of us will eventually be better than novice and most of us will never be as fast as Billy Fisher or Ryan Mayfield. Once you reach that middle devision you just have to strive to get better to win. But as many have said, it's not about sponsorship or anything like that, we just need a rating system that is enforced so nobody sneaks under the radar.
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Old 11-09-2009, 11:07 PM   #70
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Well you could do it like major motorcycle company's do contingence money. If you win a event that only has 20 entrance you get nothing but if you win your class at an event with 100 or more entrants you you get the bucks ( or in our case you get bumped up to the next class )But I don't thick it should be determined by sponsorship as JAZ said there are guys that are good promoters that don't have pro speed. Mark,
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Old 11-09-2009, 11:36 PM   #71
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Default On the right track !!

I think what Im seeing and reading is all good ,what question I have is do people realize when they step up in class to just keep it basic,hold your line and if someone is racing you keep it clean .Offroad racing isnt perfect it gets ugly just like when Mayfield and Kortz kept taking Travis out at the Sidewinder ,,,but thats Jimmy's way of not calling the race. I think this at least will bring this out in the open.
Keep all of it coming maybe someone will get the hint and being the times we are in car manufacturers will take a better look on who and why they sign someone,and with that sponsorship they want them to run expert.Its not really saving you a ton of money not be sponsored its kinda just a statis thing sometimes,,and I could be wrong no system is perfect and its only my opinion,,,
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Old 11-10-2009, 03:58 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Racecrafter View Post

If you have a "chassis" sponsor of anykind you are an Expert or Pro.

Personally I'd like to see it go even deeper.

Sportsman No sponsors what so ever. Not even "Dans Honey dippers" or what ever.

Intermediate any percentage sponsors except chassis. This includes engines tires and "Dans honey dippers"

Expert This is for the percentage chassis sponsors and 100% for other products. Including Dans honey dippers that may pay your entries or travel or???

Pro Is wide open. Get all that you can for sponsorship. (As most of them do)
I agree with this! Most big races dont offer the 4 classes, but I sign up whatever level is right below the PRO class.

I have only been racing for a little over 2 years now, and find myself outgunned sometimes, but I feel it makes me become a better driver. This past weekend, I seen some crazy names in the Sportsman class that just blew my away!!
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Old 11-10-2009, 07:16 AM   #73
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Thumbs up Novice, Intermediate, Open / Expert, Pro

This is a tough one and it all looks like good input.
My take is it's a two level problem.
I like letting the Directors and Promoters do their job. It is their job to manage and promote our hobby of racing toy cars. People need to be moved accordingly based on skill. I think a simple website will use AMB times to help the national level guys know where you stand in your region. The infrastructure is already there. This will help get to a national ranking system. I like the card or "transponder" registration idea. If you are not in the system then you are eligible to be placed by the director.

Novice - Directors should shuffle people out of Novice on a regular basis. Requirement = 1 year in the ranking system. This allows new racers to be circulated in regularly. No sponsorships should be mentioned by the race directing staff for Novice races. Sponsorships should not be recognized even though they could be present.

Intermediate / Sportsman - If you are in the bottom 70% of racing in your region or you have been racing for more than 1 year in the system, you should be eligible for this class. Sponsorships should not be recognized here either. You should not have to listen to a 5 page list of sponsors for Sportsman drivers that have been driving for years. This is where the race directors come in. I'm not saying the Racers can't be sponsored. Racers need to shuffled out of this class on a regular basis to make room for Novice drivers moving up.

Open / Expert - This is where the drivers should start to shine. Sponsorships should become apparent and announced by the Directors. These drivers should be in the top 30% in their respective regions.
the level of sponsorship should not matter. Drivers can be made to run Expert / Open from the lower division. At big events they can even be made to run with the pros. They are good enough to know what they are doing but they are just not as fast.

Pro - No driver should be made to run this class without all of the credentials. Top 5% of the Expert class Nationally and full sponsorship come into play here. If both are not present then the driver should not be made to run Pro but it should be left as an option to them if they do want to move up. It is a different ball game competing against factory teams and equipment. Once a driver commits to Pro, his ranking needs to stay that way for at least a certain amount of time.

At big races to promote The "pro/am" theory and to allow guys to run together, Run the Pros and Experts together in qualifying. If you have 6 heats then resort after every round by seeding TQ in heat 1, 2nd in heat 2 and so on down the line through the Expert drivers. This way they all get to run together and you can see the the drivers gage themselves against faster competition. You do not get to run with the big boys if you are in classes lower than Expert. The mains will still be sorted Pro and Expert.

Good stuff and would like to hear comments.
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Old 11-10-2009, 07:19 AM   #74
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If you have any sponsors at all you are basically being paid to race.You should run pro.This is a huge problem in Florida.In one of our states series a guy got second in pro buggy last year and is running intermediate this year.Some of the fastest pros from our local tracks run intermediate at big events......If your lap times would have put you in the B main in the pro class you should be running pro.Quit sandbagging!!!! Intermediate or novice is for the new guys that haven't got it down yet.If you have been racing for more than a year and a half in intermediate it is time to step up. Sponsored or not.All I can say to you intermediate guys that are tired of this is HACK them everytime they line up.
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Old 11-10-2009, 08:24 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by houston View Post
my sentiments exactly

thats why i say run a placement heat and take either the top 5 fastest laps (in case you have some issues) , or top 5 practice laps or fastest qualifying run to determine your placement and class .

and btw , its called resort

this way it would be called class resort
But that's sandbagable too.

The only true way to do it would be to have a national database of racers. Club, big, local series, etc. Each track puts thier information in and results. That way when Johnny Sandbagger from Tx goes to Fl for a money race to race Sportsman when they enter his name it shows he's been racing pro in every other race.

This has it's own problems too though. My home track has Expert, Pro's whatever that race in open/pro classes at big races. The track down the road, however has experts and pro's that race in sportsman, or intermediate whatever you wanna call it. And they race there for a good reason too, they aren't sandbagging, it's just the level of racers that race at the track.

Money races suck anyhow. Brings out the worst in alot of people...
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