Control Tyre or Not?
07-13-2009, 10:30 PM
#1
Control Tyre or Not?
Just reading a race report by Craig Drescher on the Euros. He asked an interesting question. His statement was:
What do people think? I can't speak for the more competitive racers in the world considering I'm just your average hack racer who can only buy what I can afford. But it does seem to over complicate things.
So "Keep it as it is or control it????"
I think Control it. A control tyre would create a more even field.
"Personally I'd like to see a controlled tire for the major races but thats my opinion. I'd like to hear what others think about this because its a hot topic right now in this class. Keep it as it is or control it????"
(Craig Dreschler, URL: http://www.neobuggy.net/modules/news...p?storyid=6546)
What do people think? I can't speak for the more competitive racers in the world considering I'm just your average hack racer who can only buy what I can afford. But it does seem to over complicate things.
So "Keep it as it is or control it????"
I think Control it. A control tyre would create a more even field.
07-13-2009, 11:03 PM
#2
I agree to the fact that things are getting a bit out of hand regarding tire brands and choices but it's always up to the racer.
PROs usually know what to use before even going to a track.
I personally use whatever available/like and can afford.
Lets say we control it...HOW...WHICH one...WHO will do it?
It will most probably start a war among drivers and factories.
PROs usually know what to use before even going to a track.
I personally use whatever available/like and can afford.
Lets say we control it...HOW...WHICH one...WHO will do it?
It will most probably start a war among drivers and factories.
07-13-2009, 11:23 PM
#3
A control tyre sounds like a good idea on paper, but I don't know how good f an idea it would be, realistically.
If you're talking about a Formula 1 type control tyre, that is to say, one manufacturer produces one type of tyre that all competitors use, I think that you would have to address the following questions:
-who, among all the different manufacturers do you pick, and why?
-Do you think this would get approval from all the different manufacturers, even if they aren't selected to supply the tyre of choice?
-All manufacturers (not just tyres!) invest heavily in research, advertising, and paying big bucks to drivers who will make their product look good on race day, get lots of coverage which is used to sell product. Now suddenly, driver A, who is sponsored by Tyre maker B, can't use his sponsor's product at a big event with lots of media coverage & exposure because there is a control tyre provided by company C, so could this potentially conflict with existing sponsorship deals?
Scenario B: to have each manufacturer agree to produce a tyre with strictly regulated dimensions, tread pattern & compound, so as to do away with tyre companies having to bring 10 different types of tyre & 3 different compounds to each event. I think this is much more realistic, but would likely also mean a need for more scrutineering.
Either way, it would have to be handled very carefully if it were to be implemented, otherwise it could end up with a manufacturers' feud and a Formula 1 style scandal circus that I honestly think R/C can do without.
Speaking personally, I think that the idea for a control tyre is great--for sportsman/beginner/local club racing as a cost-cutting and competition-levelling measure, but that's about it. When you start messing with things that can affect major sponsorship deals and the very fabric of the R/C industry, I can only see it ending badly. I think that the tyre market should be allowed to regulate itself; the good tyre skus (good grip, fair price, long lasting) will always sell, and the excessive, overpriced, overly-specialized skus will eventually fall away in a self-regulating cycle... As it should be.
If you're talking about a Formula 1 type control tyre, that is to say, one manufacturer produces one type of tyre that all competitors use, I think that you would have to address the following questions:
-who, among all the different manufacturers do you pick, and why?
-Do you think this would get approval from all the different manufacturers, even if they aren't selected to supply the tyre of choice?
-All manufacturers (not just tyres!) invest heavily in research, advertising, and paying big bucks to drivers who will make their product look good on race day, get lots of coverage which is used to sell product. Now suddenly, driver A, who is sponsored by Tyre maker B, can't use his sponsor's product at a big event with lots of media coverage & exposure because there is a control tyre provided by company C, so could this potentially conflict with existing sponsorship deals?
Scenario B: to have each manufacturer agree to produce a tyre with strictly regulated dimensions, tread pattern & compound, so as to do away with tyre companies having to bring 10 different types of tyre & 3 different compounds to each event. I think this is much more realistic, but would likely also mean a need for more scrutineering.
Either way, it would have to be handled very carefully if it were to be implemented, otherwise it could end up with a manufacturers' feud and a Formula 1 style scandal circus that I honestly think R/C can do without.
Speaking personally, I think that the idea for a control tyre is great--for sportsman/beginner/local club racing as a cost-cutting and competition-levelling measure, but that's about it. When you start messing with things that can affect major sponsorship deals and the very fabric of the R/C industry, I can only see it ending badly. I think that the tyre market should be allowed to regulate itself; the good tyre skus (good grip, fair price, long lasting) will always sell, and the excessive, overpriced, overly-specialized skus will eventually fall away in a self-regulating cycle... As it should be.
Last edited by captain america; 07-13-2009 at 11:34 PM.
07-13-2009, 11:30 PM
#4
Knowing your tires is part of the race..You have to know what works where and what doesn't..what compound..what insert..weather to cut tread off or not..those are all things that make one racer better than another, its things that need to be learned and experienced and if the other driver is too lazy, or misinformed to know what tire to choose for what situation, that's his tough luck, and maybe next time he will do his homework..Just my opinion, as it really dont apply to me because I could have magic tires and I would still drive like shit
07-14-2009, 12:40 AM
#5
Tech Regular
I'm all for control tires, so long as they are tires that actually work at the track, not just something someone blindly picked. There are enough tracks, and surfaces that no one manufacture would be hurt by this. Could even have 3-4 spec tire choices, as long as they all worked and this would give drivers some tunability to there driving style. Example: Hole-Shots, to Grid Irons to some other brand that is close to the same style. Not Hole-shots on some, City Blocks on others, and even some Bow-Ties or I-Beams out there. Just pick one style and use that.
07-14-2009, 03:56 AM
#6
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I personally think this is a really BAD idea. Track surface conditions change during the day, so your ideal tire choice changes. Also different drivers have different driving styles, so what works well for one may not be at all suited for another... and tire choice is part of tuning the car to behave the way you want it to. Now, I'm fine with a spec tire... as long as it is AKA Cityblocks. 
I run them on virtually every track condition. Lots of folks would disagree though... and the dense pincount would SUCK if it were really muddy.
I run them on virtually every track condition. Lots of folks would disagree though... and the dense pincount would SUCK if it were really muddy.
07-14-2009, 05:45 AM
#7
different cars with different handling characterictics, different driving styles.
choosing right tires are part of the racing
if you look what people run at one track there are huge differences and everyones says the certain tires suites them the best.
where i was happy with M3 holeshots some run M2 bowties.
choosing right tires are part of the racing
if you look what people run at one track there are huge differences and everyones says the certain tires suites them the best.
where i was happy with M3 holeshots some run M2 bowties.
07-14-2009, 05:53 AM
#8
I totally think this is a very bad idea - I feel people are just be sore about losing. Tire setup is a cruial part in setup. There are people with different driving skills that likes certian things. By making a standard tire for racing will make good drivers slow and some bad drivers worst. It will cause the sactioning bodies (ROAR/IFMAR/RCPRO) extinct because this is suppose to be for fun and all these rules and techs just make is as a second job for the 99% of drivers that are not paid to race. Whats next, saying everyone has to run Hitec servos or OS engines - or everyone needs to run black springs.
its getting out of hand. Just because you lost stop trying to find excuses.
I just ran Saturday and sucked all day long becasue I did not choose the right tires. It was my fault
By making a standard tire - it will put manufactors out of business.
And I sorry but if you can afford good tires then thats on you. Working in a LHS on thing I tell customers is if you are planning to race, be prepared to pay for it.
Not pointing fingers
its getting out of hand. Just because you lost stop trying to find excuses.
I just ran Saturday and sucked all day long becasue I did not choose the right tires. It was my fault
By making a standard tire - it will put manufactors out of business.
And I sorry but if you can afford good tires then thats on you. Working in a LHS on thing I tell customers is if you are planning to race, be prepared to pay for it.
Not pointing fingers
07-14-2009, 06:09 AM
#9
Control tires work for something like a Spec class, Slash comes to mind. I however dont think it will work for someting like 1/8 buggy/truggy. As said there are many tire choices in these classes and some people like their car to drive one way and others a different way. For a new comer or even a seasoned racer sometimes changing tires is an easy way to get something out of your car that your looking for rather then changing other parts of the setup.
Token, I dont think anyone was crying about losing. Im sure glad you dont work at my LHS as you seem to have that typical too cool for school attitude that can turn many new comers to the hobby away. Not everyone works at a LHS or has the money to buy a new set of tires every week. Does that mean they shouldnt race?
Token, I dont think anyone was crying about losing. Im sure glad you dont work at my LHS as you seem to have that typical too cool for school attitude that can turn many new comers to the hobby away. Not everyone works at a LHS or has the money to buy a new set of tires every week. Does that mean they shouldnt race?
07-14-2009, 06:45 AM
#10
Control tires work for something like a Spec class, Slash comes to mind. I however dont think it will work for someting like 1/8 buggy/truggy. As said there are many tire choices in these classes and some people like their car to drive one way and others a different way. For a new comer or even a seasoned racer sometimes changing tires is an easy way to get something out of your car that your looking for rather then changing other parts of the setup.
Token, I dont think anyone was crying about losing. Im sure glad you dont work at my LHS as you seem to have that typical too cool for school attitude that can turn many new comers to the hobby away. Not everyone works at a LHS or has the money to buy a new set of tires every week. Does that mean they shouldnt race?
Token, I dont think anyone was crying about losing. Im sure glad you dont work at my LHS as you seem to have that typical too cool for school attitude that can turn many new comers to the hobby away. Not everyone works at a LHS or has the money to buy a new set of tires every week. Does that mean they shouldnt race?
Dude its the people who loses that comes up this these rules and regulations and the "oh thats not fair" crap. I'm glad that you dont come to MY shop as you judge with out knowing. I sell alot of products to new comers, but when NEW customers come in and ask about racing - being a GOOD business man and not just trying to snatch every penny from each customer, I try to be straight fouth and honest. Letting a customer walk into a shop and buying a Race Roller and not selling him the engine, starter box ect... is just not right. I try to get the right product for each customer. Customers "think" they want to race, but when I tell them what they will need and the upkeep and all the extras, they back up and grab a tmaxx or Revo or something. I rather to do it that way, rather than they get home then come back and say, I just spent a $1000 and now i have to spend another $1000. They are not happy and I look foolish. I rather say look if you want to race let put down everything you need so you will have a good day at the track. Some say DAMN $2500+ are you serious, people pay that much. Others say lets do it. This hobby is not for everyone. Yes there are cheaper ways togo but i wll not stock that stuff. If I dont stock parts for it, I dont carry the car or truck
And to answer your question: if you dont have the money for tires -then honesly you have two choices, race on bad tires and have a frustrating day, or dont race. Tires cost money and they are not cheap. And I tell my customers this.
And at the end of the day, each customer is happy I spend qualtiy time with them explaining the cost part by part, and not just selling them stuff they have no idea what its for.
And to be frank - if you LHS dont do this and let customers know everything they can before they by this that is bad business.
07-14-2009, 08:46 AM
#11
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Dude its the people who loses that comes up this these rules and regulations and the "oh thats not fair" crap. I'm glad that you dont come to MY shop as you judge with out knowing. I sell alot of products to new comers, but when NEW customers come in and ask about racing - being a GOOD business man and not just trying to snatch every penny from each customer, I try to be straight fouth and honest. Letting a customer walk into a shop and buying a Race Roller and not selling him the engine, starter box ect... is just not right. I try to get the right product for each customer. Customers "think" they want to race, but when I tell them what they will need and the upkeep and all the extras, they back up and grab a tmaxx or Revo or something. I rather to do it that way, rather than they get home then come back and say, I just spent a $1000 and now i have to spend another $1000. They are not happy and I look foolish. I rather say look if you want to race let put down everything you need so you will have a good day at the track. Some say DAMN $2500+ are you serious, people pay that much. Others say lets do it. This hobby is not for everyone. Yes there are cheaper ways togo but i wll not stock that stuff. If I dont stock parts for it, I dont carry the car or truck
And to answer your question: if you dont have the money for tires -then honesly you have two choices, race on bad tires and have a frustrating day, or dont race. Tires cost money and they are not cheap. And I tell my customers this.
And at the end of the day, each customer is happy I spend qualtiy time with them explaining the cost part by part, and not just selling them stuff they have no idea what its for.
And to be frank - if you LHS dont do this and let customers know everything they can before they by this that is bad business.
And to answer your question: if you dont have the money for tires -then honesly you have two choices, race on bad tires and have a frustrating day, or dont race. Tires cost money and they are not cheap. And I tell my customers this.
And at the end of the day, each customer is happy I spend qualtiy time with them explaining the cost part by part, and not just selling them stuff they have no idea what its for.
And to be frank - if you LHS dont do this and let customers know everything they can before they by this that is bad business.
07-14-2009, 08:51 AM
#12
Hey Look, Im not telling you how to run your business. I do think its good that you explain to customers what they need. My LHS is very new comer friendly, in fact this year the sportsman class has been larger then anything else. The reason I fired back at you was this line,
"And I sorry but if you can afford good tires then thats on you."
that just sounds really cocky. You cant tell me that you havent ever been to a shop where the guys working there were all to cool to help a new guy or just try to sell some crap to them that will break so they will be back for parts.
Sorry to Hijack the thread guys.
"And I sorry but if you can afford good tires then thats on you."
that just sounds really cocky. You cant tell me that you havent ever been to a shop where the guys working there were all to cool to help a new guy or just try to sell some crap to them that will break so they will be back for parts.
Sorry to Hijack the thread guys.
07-14-2009, 09:05 AM
#13
Control tires would be great for the company chosen but all other companies would just be left to pound sand.
The only reason I can think of to do this is to reduce cost to the club racer. So if your running a club and the majority are behind the idea then go for it. Otherwise I am 100% against the idea and frankly would probably shy away from any place with a control tire.
I completely understand the feeling that there are just too many tires out there and that the costs of trying to have them all is way out of control. In the past Ive purchased many many different tires in an effort to have the right tires for all occasions. This usually leads to me being broke and confused because I can then never decide which tires I want to run. This year I decided to do things a little differently. Ive chosen a brand to use and so far Ive stuck with them. I then find myself using the same tire just about all the time. Its quite nice really. I have gotten a nice stock and I dont think much about tires anymore instead I am concentrating on my set-up.
Even though I have made my choice I like having a choice and when the next best thing comes along I like being able to switch. So please no control tires unless maybe the control tire is the AKA soft City Block
The only reason I can think of to do this is to reduce cost to the club racer. So if your running a club and the majority are behind the idea then go for it. Otherwise I am 100% against the idea and frankly would probably shy away from any place with a control tire.
I completely understand the feeling that there are just too many tires out there and that the costs of trying to have them all is way out of control. In the past Ive purchased many many different tires in an effort to have the right tires for all occasions. This usually leads to me being broke and confused because I can then never decide which tires I want to run. This year I decided to do things a little differently. Ive chosen a brand to use and so far Ive stuck with them. I then find myself using the same tire just about all the time. Its quite nice really. I have gotten a nice stock and I dont think much about tires anymore instead I am concentrating on my set-up.
Even though I have made my choice I like having a choice and when the next best thing comes along I like being able to switch. So please no control tires unless maybe the control tire is the AKA soft City Block
07-14-2009, 09:17 AM
#14
.....control tire for pros?.....no way.....most wont pay for their tires anyway.....maybe a good idea for a club if a HUGE quantity of tires could be purchased at the beginning of the season for a decent discount......otherwise.......no control tires........i race 1/8 on road and you tell inquiring minds at the track what it costs to race..(also high tire prices)..they just go....
....i would LOVE to see 1/8 pan cars with 3 port motors come back....JUST to get new people at the track.........which top level racing isn't doing.........
....i would LOVE to see 1/8 pan cars with 3 port motors come back....JUST to get new people at the track.........which top level racing isn't doing.........
07-14-2009, 10:32 AM
#15
I like the IDEA of control tires (coming from 1:1 dirt "Crate" dirt racing where we HAVE control tires). But i understand that it will not work in 1/8. UNLESS a complete new "class" is created. With a SPEC motor, and tires. Basically like handouts at races. that's the only way i can see it happening, and i DON"T see that happening LOL. Control tires are great if there is a series that runs just those tires and motors and ect.
Let's take 1:1 for example
Fastrak Latemodels have to use either a "602" or "604" crate GM motor and Goodyear G55 & G50 tires (i don't member if those are the right tire compounds but basically it was Hard and Harder compound tires)
UMP PRO Latemodels - "602" & "604" and HOOSIER G40 and G50 (medium hard and Hard LOL)
Basically a control tire has to be a HARD tire. The reason to have a control tire is costs. well a hard tire outlasts a soft tire therefore its "more cost efficient".
Now for those that say tire choice is part of the race. YES it is. YES i agree a good driver will be able to pick what tire suits them best. BUT if the tire is picked for you then you have to figure out another way to get an advantage. It forces you to make sure your chassis is set up PERFECT. to make sure the clutch is perfect, and makes you drive better because the guy next to you has his car setup perfect and the same tires. This makes you a better driver in my opinion because then you learn to drive YOUR car. Sometimes your car is better than your skills. well a control tire would force you to be better than the car if you wana run up front. Just think if you had the Pros (Drake, Tebo, the "Ryans" LOL) all on spec tires, with spec motors?? it would come down to the car setup and the the driver.
Sorry if you disagree with part or all of this but this is just my .02
Let's take 1:1 for example
Fastrak Latemodels have to use either a "602" or "604" crate GM motor and Goodyear G55 & G50 tires (i don't member if those are the right tire compounds but basically it was Hard and Harder compound tires)
UMP PRO Latemodels - "602" & "604" and HOOSIER G40 and G50 (medium hard and Hard LOL)
Basically a control tire has to be a HARD tire. The reason to have a control tire is costs. well a hard tire outlasts a soft tire therefore its "more cost efficient".
Now for those that say tire choice is part of the race. YES it is. YES i agree a good driver will be able to pick what tire suits them best. BUT if the tire is picked for you then you have to figure out another way to get an advantage. It forces you to make sure your chassis is set up PERFECT. to make sure the clutch is perfect, and makes you drive better because the guy next to you has his car setup perfect and the same tires. This makes you a better driver in my opinion because then you learn to drive YOUR car. Sometimes your car is better than your skills. well a control tire would force you to be better than the car if you wana run up front. Just think if you had the Pros (Drake, Tebo, the "Ryans" LOL) all on spec tires, with spec motors?? it would come down to the car setup and the the driver.
Sorry if you disagree with part or all of this but this is just my .02