1/8 Magazine shoot out.
01-15-2009, 12:02 PM
#31
I thought it was time for another round of "people can't have integrity anywhere because we make money for a living"
There are many things that most people say to others simply because they are online. I have done a lot of shootouts over my years at 2 magazines and never has my opinion been censored or what happened been told.
Shootouts are very difficult because no matter how much attention is given to cars they are never given 100% and bias always comes into play even when the best of us try to ignore it.
Most people don't want to hear the truth. They don't want to hear that you have 4-7 amazing cars out there, or the fact if you want to really try to find something wrong with them you can, but that's just the people who want to sensationalize the negatives and get mad when people focus on the good.
There really is only 1 or 2 magazines that don't pick winners, but XRC and RC Car have picked the one they would drive, but that doesn't mean it is the best everywhere. The average buyer, who really doesn't want to think he's average, wants some car that will make him 2 laps faster. But they won't. At the highest level the pros are maybe .1 off a second per lap and with 5 different chassis, motors, servos, tires, blah blah.
The problem lies with shootouts right now is that there are too many options, it's very hard to get equipment for 8 cars (which is over $10,000 easy) and to have them all set up perfect. It's not really a fair comparison, and difficult to do where everybody will be happy.
I'm not going to come here and try to pretend we do it perfect, or because we bash some company overly for a product that it makes more more truthful. I can point out some things in every magazine that were a little "light on truth" some more meaningful of others. (I refused to print a review of a radio because of failures and pointed it out in the magazine...I see that same radio reviewed with no problems in others when I know we all got them at the same time). Does that mean they lied...not sure. But it's what a person experienced.
We can all brag about our driving, but what does that mean? I'm not sure. I have more of an argument for a person who doesn't drive well and the car making them faster, which is more what the end user will be. But most people who internet race like to all think we're a-main and equipment is holding us back.
Magazines and the internet are very similar, except online there is no repercussion for not being accurate, and intelligence seems to be measured in saying "this sucks."
BAck when we did our Buggy Shootout, we had cars we didn't even push to the second day, sometimes you don't even have to say "it sucks or it's not that good" but I'm not going to think because somebody chooses to focus on the negative that it's a better review...and just like being swayed by advertising...you can be swayed by the lack of or if an advertiser pulls out. Something to think about that nobody seems to talk about.
We're currently thinking of some type of shootout that doesn't require months of prep and waiting for cars.
There are many things that most people say to others simply because they are online. I have done a lot of shootouts over my years at 2 magazines and never has my opinion been censored or what happened been told.
Shootouts are very difficult because no matter how much attention is given to cars they are never given 100% and bias always comes into play even when the best of us try to ignore it.
Most people don't want to hear the truth. They don't want to hear that you have 4-7 amazing cars out there, or the fact if you want to really try to find something wrong with them you can, but that's just the people who want to sensationalize the negatives and get mad when people focus on the good.
There really is only 1 or 2 magazines that don't pick winners, but XRC and RC Car have picked the one they would drive, but that doesn't mean it is the best everywhere. The average buyer, who really doesn't want to think he's average, wants some car that will make him 2 laps faster. But they won't. At the highest level the pros are maybe .1 off a second per lap and with 5 different chassis, motors, servos, tires, blah blah.
The problem lies with shootouts right now is that there are too many options, it's very hard to get equipment for 8 cars (which is over $10,000 easy) and to have them all set up perfect. It's not really a fair comparison, and difficult to do where everybody will be happy.
I'm not going to come here and try to pretend we do it perfect, or because we bash some company overly for a product that it makes more more truthful. I can point out some things in every magazine that were a little "light on truth" some more meaningful of others. (I refused to print a review of a radio because of failures and pointed it out in the magazine...I see that same radio reviewed with no problems in others when I know we all got them at the same time). Does that mean they lied...not sure. But it's what a person experienced.
We can all brag about our driving, but what does that mean? I'm not sure. I have more of an argument for a person who doesn't drive well and the car making them faster, which is more what the end user will be. But most people who internet race like to all think we're a-main and equipment is holding us back.
Magazines and the internet are very similar, except online there is no repercussion for not being accurate, and intelligence seems to be measured in saying "this sucks."
BAck when we did our Buggy Shootout, we had cars we didn't even push to the second day, sometimes you don't even have to say "it sucks or it's not that good" but I'm not going to think because somebody chooses to focus on the negative that it's a better review...and just like being swayed by advertising...you can be swayed by the lack of or if an advertiser pulls out. Something to think about that nobody seems to talk about.
We're currently thinking of some type of shootout that doesn't require months of prep and waiting for cars.
01-15-2009, 12:10 PM
#32
I Don't know if this has been mentioned.. but my take on the monthly reviews, or my dislike I should say.. would be any and all sections, comments dealing with the "speed" and or "power" which is based on the engine, not neccessarily the vehicle itself. I would much prefer they use the same engine for a given time period in every vehicle... DO NOT name it.. black it out like they do new 1:1 pre-production test vehicles..
I see so many times how powerfull buggy X or Truggy Y is .. based on the powerplant they chose to run in it.
Do you think that GRP $$$$ equiped Losi 2.0 in the latest XRC review would have been so fast and strong if it had a __insert no named low cost mill here__ in it?
and my next observation, some times they get a vehicle shipped to them (they say so) .. THEY set it up on reccomendations, their knowledge (some have it, some don't-- they say that too alot of times) ... and other times they have the manufacturer sent driver/tech/rep etc come with a vehicle all nice and prepped..
HUGE difference..
I see so many times how powerfull buggy X or Truggy Y is .. based on the powerplant they chose to run in it.
Do you think that GRP $$$$ equiped Losi 2.0 in the latest XRC review would have been so fast and strong if it had a __insert no named low cost mill here__ in it?
and my next observation, some times they get a vehicle shipped to them (they say so) .. THEY set it up on reccomendations, their knowledge (some have it, some don't-- they say that too alot of times) ... and other times they have the manufacturer sent driver/tech/rep etc come with a vehicle all nice and prepped..
HUGE difference..
Also the point of testing with "high end" equipment is to not hinder the cars performance with sub par test gear. If I ran a stock servo that came with a radio it would severely affect the perceived performance of the vehicle and it would be blamed on the car. One of the things we can do at a magazine is run several different engines and know that they all provide more than enough power (we're talking a small power difference at the highest level) to take it out of the equation. I'm pretty sure that a cheaper Axial .21 will still provide similar performance to the race .21 GRP. But you're going to buy a $699 race kit and cheap out on the engine? The tires?
Reviews are ALL subjective, even the ones on the internet to the time and conditions. And you CANNOT directly compare reviews to each other. While some people think the same person should review every car...it's impossible, not feasible and what happens when that person doesn't work there anymore? Do you review every car?
01-15-2009, 01:17 PM
#33
At XRC reviews and shootouts are not the problem. Misprints and errors are. I wish you all would fix it.
01-15-2009, 03:08 PM
#34
01-16-2009, 12:45 AM
#35
Tech Apprentice
XRC should invest $100 per month and hire a proof reader ... and stop taking the comments personally. The fact is, their magazine has way more grammar and spelling errors every month than all the other RC car mags combined. Not ragging on anyone, just stating a fact.
01-16-2009, 01:11 AM
#36
I have basically given up reading all RC mags for the above reason, all except for one and that is R/C Car. They have, hands down, the best magazine on the shelf. Read their reviews on different rides and you will see that they are in no way biased. That is one mag that I trust is not going to BS me about a product because of who pays the most for ads. They don't need half naked chicks and useless pit tips to sell their magazines thats for sure.
Sup mr hippy
Sup mr hippy
01-16-2009, 01:53 AM
#37
Tech Master
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Well I didn't expect this much discussion on magazine reviews,test and shoot outs when I started this thread. I was just trying to find out if there had been a shoot out of all the new buggies yet.
Pretty cool to see a pro driver and what sounds like some actual magazine editors responding to this thread.
My opinions of magazine reviews, test , and shoot outs is that, I think there to give the average guy some basic information and understanding of that product or comparison of products so that consumer has one source to evaluate what he is shopping for , instead of having to ask a lot of different people there opinions of each buggy, and when asking people there opinion on what buggy they have, chances are they don't have first hand knowledge of all the other buggy's to choose from, which a magazine shoot out would.
The last 1/8th scale shoot out I saw was right after the Losi first came out. I bought my Kyosho SP2 right before I saw that test, when I was trying to decide which 1/8 to get it was between the Kyosho and Mugen.
All of the local hard core 1/8 drivers said those were the two best at that time.
I like Losi and of my Electrics are Losi , but I was a little Leary of buying Losi first 1/8, just because I thought they mite not get it right the first time out.
I passed on the Mugen only because it had the pillow ball suspension, and my only experience with that came from the T-Max, and I just remember it not being the most durable.
I know the Mugen ended up winning the shoot out, and they praised it and it's pillow ball suspension for working great and being supper durable.
I can't remember if the Kyosho ended up second or third, but after reading it and talking to a lot of the guys that drove Mugens I think I mite have ended up buying Mugen.
Except for the stock front knuckles , I have been real happy with my Kyosho.
And now looking back It looks like I would not have gone wrong buying a Losi either.
Any way I guess what I'm trying to say is that the more Information you can get, weather it's from magazines, Internet forums, or word of mouth, it will all be helpful when your trying to decide which new RC Car to buy.
Reading all the posts so far , it does not sound like there has been a recent shoot out of all the new buggy's.
Maybe one of these editors could tell us if and when there will be a shoot out of all the newest buggy's that are out now.
Thanks.
Mike
Pretty cool to see a pro driver and what sounds like some actual magazine editors responding to this thread.
My opinions of magazine reviews, test , and shoot outs is that, I think there to give the average guy some basic information and understanding of that product or comparison of products so that consumer has one source to evaluate what he is shopping for , instead of having to ask a lot of different people there opinions of each buggy, and when asking people there opinion on what buggy they have, chances are they don't have first hand knowledge of all the other buggy's to choose from, which a magazine shoot out would.
The last 1/8th scale shoot out I saw was right after the Losi first came out. I bought my Kyosho SP2 right before I saw that test, when I was trying to decide which 1/8 to get it was between the Kyosho and Mugen.
All of the local hard core 1/8 drivers said those were the two best at that time.
I like Losi and of my Electrics are Losi , but I was a little Leary of buying Losi first 1/8, just because I thought they mite not get it right the first time out.
I passed on the Mugen only because it had the pillow ball suspension, and my only experience with that came from the T-Max, and I just remember it not being the most durable.
I know the Mugen ended up winning the shoot out, and they praised it and it's pillow ball suspension for working great and being supper durable.
I can't remember if the Kyosho ended up second or third, but after reading it and talking to a lot of the guys that drove Mugens I think I mite have ended up buying Mugen.
Except for the stock front knuckles , I have been real happy with my Kyosho.
And now looking back It looks like I would not have gone wrong buying a Losi either.
Any way I guess what I'm trying to say is that the more Information you can get, weather it's from magazines, Internet forums, or word of mouth, it will all be helpful when your trying to decide which new RC Car to buy.
Reading all the posts so far , it does not sound like there has been a recent shoot out of all the new buggy's.
Maybe one of these editors could tell us if and when there will be a shoot out of all the newest buggy's that are out now.
Thanks.
Mike
01-16-2009, 06:16 AM
#38
I have yet to see a single magazine say a car is garbage or really aggressively point out a flaw in the design or construction of a car. I get a number of mags each month and the ones where they say "poor, average, excellent" type scales will NEVER rate a car poor. 100% of the time it will say average or excellent no matter how crappy the car is.
I know it is all subjective, but I do feel like the mags tend to gloss over things to not offend the advertisers.
I know it is all subjective, but I do feel like the mags tend to gloss over things to not offend the advertisers.
01-16-2009, 09:55 AM
#39
Right, you just don't seem to read the other ones close enough.
01-16-2009, 09:56 AM
#40
I have basically given up reading all RC mags for the above reason, all except for one and that is R/C Car. They have, hands down, the best magazine on the shelf. Read their reviews on different rides and you will see that they are in no way biased. That is one mag that I trust is not going to BS me about a product because of who pays the most for ads. They don't need half naked chicks and useless pit tips to sell their magazines thats for sure.
Sup mr hippy
Sup mr hippy
01-16-2009, 09:58 AM
#41
I agree. I see misprints in all of them. I like XRC over all of them, as a matter of fact. I'd really like to see the GS CL-1+ in your next shootout Derek. They are regaining popularity and I think it will grow in leaps and bounds with Garen back in charge again. You may or may not see a lot of them on raceday depending on the stated you race in, but they're out there. They're race worthy out of the box, they'll hang with the Mugens and Losi's whether people want to admit it or not. Well I'll get off my soapbox. Keep up the great work at XRC.
01-16-2009, 10:00 AM
#42
I have yet to see a single magazine say a car is garbage or really aggressively point out a flaw in the design or construction of a car. I get a number of mags each month and the ones where they say "poor, average, excellent" type scales will NEVER rate a car poor. 100% of the time it will say average or excellent no matter how crappy the car is.
I know it is all subjective, but I do feel like the mags tend to gloss over things to not offend the advertisers.
I know it is all subjective, but I do feel like the mags tend to gloss over things to not offend the advertisers.
And if you really want to read into things....if magazines never rate things poor and they are all "good" reviews but one is "average" what does that mean? But in the end there isn't a "junk" definition. If a $350 RTR that makes people happy is that junk?
01-16-2009, 10:22 AM
#43
Tech Apprentice
I read them all well enough to know that XRC is the only mag that readers have actually written in to complain about all the errors ... repeatedly. And instead of actually doing something about it, XRC justifies it by claiming that "all the others" have errors too ...
If that WERE the case, you are just saying that you want to be "just like all the others". Fine. Keep doing what you're doing. I don't care. How many people have to tell you that the errors are excessive before you say to yourself "Gee, maybe these people have got something here ... maybe we could do something to improve the quality of our magazine ..." ?
If that WERE the case, you are just saying that you want to be "just like all the others". Fine. Keep doing what you're doing. I don't care. How many people have to tell you that the errors are excessive before you say to yourself "Gee, maybe these people have got something here ... maybe we could do something to improve the quality of our magazine ..." ?
01-16-2009, 10:24 AM
#44
I read them all well enough to know that XRC is the only mag that readers have actually written in to complain about all the errors ... repeatedly. And instead of actually doing something about it, XRC justifies it by claiming that "all the others" have errors too ...
If that WERE the case, you are just saying that you want to be "just like all the others". Fine. Keep doing what you're doing. I don't care. How many people have to tell you that the errors are excessive before you say to yourself "Gee, maybe these people have got something here ... maybe we could do something to improve the quality of our magazine ..." ?
If that WERE the case, you are just saying that you want to be "just like all the others". Fine. Keep doing what you're doing. I don't care. How many people have to tell you that the errors are excessive before you say to yourself "Gee, maybe these people have got something here ... maybe we could do something to improve the quality of our magazine ..." ?
And FYI we don't just accept errors we try to have none, but I'm honest with myself and to you...we are too small and put out too much work to think that we will ever have no errors. The NY Times has more copy editors than us and they have an error section.
01-16-2009, 10:30 AM
#45
Tech Apprentice
Chrominator,
Sounds like the Kyosho is a great car ... but don't judge the Mugen pillow ball suspension based on experience with another car or truck. We (I am the pit guy) have never had a problem with the Mugen pillow ball suspension in over two years of driving the MBX5R and now the MBX6. A well known pro MP9 driver drove our MBX6 after a club race a while back, and he said the Mugen handled the bumps better than his MP9, probably due to the pillow ball suspension.
All the newer cars out there now are great cars ... just depends on what suits an individual's driving style and preferences. And ALL cars, when they first come out, have SOME problems ... The MBX6 had a real problem with the front upper hinge pin holder breaking. Nothing an aluminum after-market part didn't fix
We are on a budget, and although the Mugen parts are a little more expensive than say, the Losi parts, we have found the durability and longevity of the Mugen to be second to none. That is why we have stuck with Mugen.
Sounds like the Kyosho is a great car ... but don't judge the Mugen pillow ball suspension based on experience with another car or truck. We (I am the pit guy) have never had a problem with the Mugen pillow ball suspension in over two years of driving the MBX5R and now the MBX6. A well known pro MP9 driver drove our MBX6 after a club race a while back, and he said the Mugen handled the bumps better than his MP9, probably due to the pillow ball suspension.
All the newer cars out there now are great cars ... just depends on what suits an individual's driving style and preferences. And ALL cars, when they first come out, have SOME problems ... The MBX6 had a real problem with the front upper hinge pin holder breaking. Nothing an aluminum after-market part didn't fix
We are on a budget, and although the Mugen parts are a little more expensive than say, the Losi parts, we have found the durability and longevity of the Mugen to be second to none. That is why we have stuck with Mugen.