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Best kit for 2021

Old 09-20-2021, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Buckland
I don't think this will be a 2021 release, but what do you guys think? Real or photoshop!?

Haven't seen anything that daring in quite a few years. I'm guessing lay-down shocks with rocker arms and what looks like a very flimsy wing mount. Good for aero, but I'd have to see more of this. Cool find!
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Old 09-21-2021, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by captain america
Haven't seen anything that daring in quite a few years. I'm guessing lay-down shocks with rocker arms and what looks like a very flimsy wing mount. Good for aero, but I'd have to see more of this. Cool find!
I don't know if they'd be able to fit pred/MRO style inboard shocks with cantilevers, so I'm expecting to see something more along the lines of 1/8 onroad suspension with shorter shocks laid way down. Not sure how they'll be able to get it work, but glad they are trying (if it's real)!
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Old 09-21-2021, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Buckland
I don't know if they'd be able to fit pred/MRO style inboard shocks with cantilevers, so I'm expecting to see something more along the lines of 1/8 onroad suspension with shorter shocks laid way down. Not sure how they'll be able to get it work, but glad they are trying (if it's real)!
I seem to remember reading (or watching) something not too long ago about how 16mm shocks seem to be the "sweet spot" for 1/8 buggies because of the way the suspension is solicited and how you want just big enough to have sufficient oil to soak-up the heat, but not so big as to slow the rebound effect... Don't quote me on that. All that to say that smaller shocks might solve one problem but cause another.

There was a car back in the 90s called the Tenth Technology Predator (1/10 4WD electric buggy) that used an inboard F1-style suspension. The cars were stupid fast, but a bit on the fragile side... And pretty expensive too, from what I remember. They proved that you could have lay-down shocks and be competitive, so here's to hoping some of that know-how finds its way into 1/8 buggies.
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Old 09-22-2021, 12:12 AM
  #64  
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I raced a Tenth Tech Predator for a season. It was shaft driven and was very fast in a straight line. Acceleration and top speed were higher than it's rivals. The lay down, cantilever shocks were very F1 style (watch out - Traxass is watching you!).

On smooth, high traction tracks, the car was very quick. On bumpy, inconsistent tracks, the car was not as plush suspension-wise as its rivals. And it was fragile - land a jump off-square, or get hit by another racer - gears and suspension arms would break.

It's main advantage was super low C of g. The car needed further development, then it could have been un-assailable.

Just thought I'd add that perhaps the biggest issue with the pred was crumbly composite, where the screws held the gear cases together. They had to be accessed frequently if you were racing, thus tended to strip.

On a 1/8th Nitro Buggy, I'm not sure how you'd be able to move the shocks inboard without either shifting other (heavier) items back - such as the engine - without significantly changing the wheel base to accommodate. Especially if you have the added complication of moving the rear shocks forward. Compromising the size of the shocks to mitigate it wouldn't suit the supercross style tracks we see today with massive jumps.

It's a shame, because a 1/8th Buggy in that configuration would be super cool looking.
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Last edited by Horatio; 09-22-2021 at 04:59 AM.
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Old 09-22-2021, 06:15 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Horatio
I raced a Tenth Tech Predator for a season. It was shaft driven and was very fast in a straight line. Acceleration and top speed were higher than it's rivals. The lay down, cantilever shocks were very F1 style (watch out - Traxass is watching you!).

On smooth, high traction tracks, the car was very quick. On bumpy, inconsistent tracks, the car was not as plush suspension-wise as its rivals. And it was fragile - land a jump off-square, or get hit by another racer - gears and suspension arms would break.

It's main advantage was super low C of g. The car needed further development, then it could have been un-assailable.

Just thought I'd add that perhaps the biggest issue with the pred was crumbly composite, where the screws held the gear cases together. They had to be accessed frequently if you were racing, thus tended to strip.

On a 1/8th Nitro Buggy, I'm not sure how you'd be able to move the shocks inboard without either shifting other (heavier) items back - such as the engine - without significantly changing the wheel base to accommodate. Especially if you have the added complication of moving the rear shocks forward. Compromising the size of the shocks to mitigate it wouldn't suit the supercross style tracks we see today with massive jumps.

It's a shame, because a 1/8th Buggy in that configuration would be super cool looking.
I suspect the Predator's reliability issues could've been largely solved by having more conventional (or monocoque) suspension arms and chassis/gearbox/suspension as all separate (modular) components; more like today's cars. The problem with that 1-piece composite tub was that any damage to, or stripping of any one of those three integrated components meant having to replace the whole chassis. I suspect they could've achieved the same geometry by more conventional means: not as cool looking, but more reliable.

Mounting of the shocks on 1/8: I think it can still be done. On the front, you can actually fit them longitudinally in that space between the steering servo and the fuel tank, right over the front brace, and possibly connect them to the center diff top plate. You'd have to re-shape the fuel tank slightly and put the lid further outboard, but it could be done. For the rear, the shocks might have to be mounted transverse (just like the Pred) to avoid too much heat transfer from the header, but there's definitely room.
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Old 09-22-2021, 09:43 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by captain america
I suspect the Predator's reliability issues could've been largely solved by having more conventional (or monocoque) suspension arms and chassis/gearbox/suspension as all separate (modular) components; more like today's cars. The problem with that 1-piece composite tub was that any damage to, or stripping of any one of those three integrated components meant having to replace the whole chassis. I suspect they could've achieved the same geometry by more conventional means: not as cool looking, but more reliable.
I agree 100%. Effectively, the lower part of the transmission case was built into the moulded, composite chassis. It was very strong, light and all the rest of it - but essentially, once the screws started to strip the threads, the entire chassis would need to be replaced or modified.

The gears were notoriously prone to stripping, though on all the modern shaft driven buggies, this isn't an issue - clearly it was a material/design issue.

The shocks on the Pred were small. Progressive springs worked really well, but even so, on rutted, gnarly tracks, the suspension would be overwhelmed. The car was generally setup so low as to ride on the underside of the chassis anyway!

The suspension arms were very low profile and aero-dynamic - just like a F1 car. Compared to modern buggies though, the arms were quite short. They were also vulnerable to anything and everything. To finish first, first you have to finish. Much as I loved my example, it would break easily - sometimes just by looking at it the wrong way.

Technically I owned 2 preds because my first one was stolen by the courier.

Mounting of the shocks on 1/8: I think it can still be done. On the front, you can actually fit them longitudinally in that space between the steering servo and the fuel tank, right over the front brace, and possibly connect them to the center diff top plate. You'd have to re-shape the fuel tank slightly and put the lid further outboard, but it could be done. For the rear, the shocks might have to be mounted transverse (just like the Pred) to avoid too much heat transfer from the header, but there's definitely room.
If they could pull a design like that off, without resorting to using undersized shocks - I'd buy one just to look at!
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Old 09-22-2021, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Horatio
If they could pull a design like that off, without resorting to using undersized shocks - I'd buy one just to look at!
Here's an idea: what about maintaining the same size shock body as we currently employ, and depending on the lenth of the rocker arm needed for adequate damping, the shock piston travel would likely be lessened, so you could run a shorter piston shaft. The end result would be a shorter overall shock, but with the same amount of oil, so more consistency over the course of the main. I'm also at a loss to understand why no one has offered dual rate springs for buggies, I think that's something that could be done fairly easily to improve handling. Like quite literally making the springs currently used half the length, and have a shock cup/collar in the middle.
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Old 09-23-2021, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by captain america
Here's an idea: what about maintaining the same size shock body as we currently employ, and depending on the lenth of the rocker arm needed for adequate damping, the shock piston travel would likely be lessened, so you could run a shorter piston shaft. The end result would be a shorter overall shock, but with the same amount of oil, so more consistency over the course of the main. I'm also at a loss to understand why no one has offered dual rate springs for buggies, I think that's something that could be done fairly easily to improve handling. Like quite literally making the springs currently used half the length, and have a shock cup/collar in the middle.
I think with the shocks, the rate at which the shaft travels through the oil in relation to suspension arm travel is governed by the geometry on the actual rocker/cam and the mounting holes on them. These can actually be selected as a tuning aid in themselves, depending on track conditions etc. The equivalent adjustment on a regular buggy is the shock angle/mounting positions.

The shocks in all honesty will have to work out shorter on an inboard setup, but the volume of the shocks - like you said - should be comparable to what racers have got used to with good quality, big bore shocks. If the shocks end up small ie significantly smaller in volume - heat and consistency related issues will inevitably occur and this will result in the suspension feeling less than plush.

Whilst I used progressive rate springs on my Pred, the cams can be set to give rising rate through the travel.

I used progressive rate springs on my Mugen MBX4 RR to good effect - I really liked them on tracks where you have lots of bumps and big jumps. Usually you have to compromise one over the other - less so with progressive springs.
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