Go Back  R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Nitro Off-Road
Question for experienced racers that have run multiple car brands >

Question for experienced racers that have run multiple car brands

Like Tree4Likes

Question for experienced racers that have run multiple car brands

Reply

Old 08-05-2019, 03:25 AM
  #1  
Tech Adept
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 193
Default Question for experienced racers that have run multiple car brands

So I've been running an AE rc8b3.1 for about a year now and while I think it's a good car, I can not seem to get the driving characteristics that I want out of it, no matter what adjustments I make and I've tried probably 80% of what's possible on the car. Let me try to explain:

What I'm looking for: a rear steering car, that has lots of natural rotation with light steering inputs and a light feeling front end, that can turn in TIGHT in slow corners. And likes to be driven off-power. Pretty much in the direction of a 1/10 2WD buggy even though I know that's not possible. A car that has the sensation of being pushed forward by the rear end, not pulled by the front.

what my car does: pretty much the exact opposite. Always has a front pulling sensation, wants to be driven on-power all the time (which I'm not comfortable with). Has mid corner understeer if not pushed enough, will diff out or spin out when I try to add steering or lighten the diffs to add more steering.
​​​​​I've tried many many diff combos and nothing changes this.

So now to the actual question: is something like this inherent to the car's design or should I keep looking into setup? If it's the car, which brands should I be looking at to get the feeling I want? If it's the setup, what should I be focusing on? (Like I've said, I've tried A LOT already)

Thanks.
​​
Fearo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2019, 04:07 AM
  #2  
Tech Adept
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: from a wee town in TX
Posts: 239
Default

wide c plate/ ongaros setup.

or just buy the jq and ask him on fb and he'll tell you how to get exactly what you want...
iplaygames is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2019, 04:19 AM
  #3  
Tech Addict
iTrader: (38)
 
ZEe_NYC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 658
Trader Rating: 38 (100%+)
Default

Maybe it’s your driving style that can’t adapt? Or maybe it’s the track/track conditions that doesn’t allow the driving style you desire.
ZEe_NYC is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2019, 05:23 AM
  #4  
Tech Adept
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 193
Default

Originally Posted by ZEe_NYC View Post
Maybe itís your driving style that canít adapt? Or maybe itís the track/track conditions that doesnít allow the driving style you desire.
I have this sensation on every track, regardless of the conditions. You could say my driving style doesn't 'fit' with my car right now. Obviously I can't just change my driving style completely, nor do I want to. I know it's possible to find what I want, I just need some advice/guidance from people who have way more experience than me.
​​​​​
for those that know the AE car: i'm already running the long arm/narrow pivot rear end. While this made the car better for me this doesn't fix the problem at all.

The pulling sensation can obviously not be changed by adjusting geometry.
Fearo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2019, 05:30 AM
  #5  
Tech Adept
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 193
Default

Originally Posted by iplaygames View Post
wide c plate/ ongaros setup.

or just buy the jq and ask him on fb and he'll tell you how to get exactly what you want...
Already tried ongaros setup: impossible to drive for me, extremely loose rear. Has a lightswitch rotation feel that is obviously great in the hands of a pro but not me.
Fearo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2019, 07:21 AM
  #6  
Tech Elite
 
morgoth's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,662
Default

I have an MBX8 and my car has a lot of off-power steering. Sometimes I need to take away some off-power steering because it's too twichy.
The rc8b3.1 should be similar to the MBX8, so try these setup changes if you haven't done this.

Light front diff (5K) and light rear diff (2-3k). If you want more drive to the rear wheels to steer the car on-power, you can increase the center diff oil. Otherwise use 7-10k.
Less ackerman gives more agressive turn in (holes forward). Short rear camberlinks will also increase off power steering. And lower front upper arm wil also help, but don't lower the rear link.

If you combine all these things, the car should be really aggressive and have plenty of turn in.
E1 Diablo likes this.
morgoth is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2019, 08:19 AM
  #7  
Tech Regular
iTrader: (15)
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 478
Trader Rating: 15 (94%+)
Default

That characteristic is based on the basic car design, ie; pbs, weight distribution, rear pivot / arm length, drive train etc. A Mugen style car is going to have to be driven ďhardĒ. You can make adjustments to get closer to what you want but with some car designs, when you get too far away from the ďsetup windowĒ the car will just be really unstable and slow.

Sounds like what you want is the Losi 8 2.0. That car was all about being smooth with the throttle and you could really baby it and still be fast. That type of car design seems to be a thing of the past.

like mentioned above, get a jq black edition. Thatís what I race. TheCar has all of the right adjustments and you can dial it in to suit you and the tracks you race on.

basic setup changes to get what you want: more on throttle steering, steering from the rear, mid corner rotation (this is ignoring what the bumps and jumps of the track may demand from the setup.)

more anti squat (keeps weight off rear on throttle)
more kick up (letís front dive off throttle)
less front droop (keep weight on front)
more rear droop (allow weight transfer to front)
Thinner front diff (allows tighter turns off throttle - hurts on power steering)
Thinner rear diff (allows tighter turns off throttle)
softer front end (springs, oil, sway bars)
Experiment with rear toe, less usually always equals more rotation but you give up acceleration.

Last, for me, letting the rear roll more equals more steering (this changes per driver and where and how you apply throttle so your results may vary.)

so, higher rear link on tower, longer link on hub, softer rear sway bar, softer rear oil compared to spring (under dampened)
MaricopaAgent likes this.
Dillon71 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2019, 09:12 AM
  #8  
Tech Adept
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 193
Default

Thanks for the input guys.

@dillon71, what you wrote here I found interesting:

"Sounds like what you want is the Losi 8 2.0. That car was all about being smooth with the throttle and you could really baby it and still be fast. That type of car design seems to be a thing of the past."

I've not really thought about it that way but that's pretty much what I want. I guess I 'baby' the car because countless times people have come up to me to say it looks like I'm going so slow and I'm turning top 3 lap times. I don't like driving a car 'hard', that just leads to being slow for me.

It's not that I can't get enough steering into the car, it's just that I want a car that will rotate smoothly without having to use much steering input. Right now I feel like all the business is at the front of the car (power + steering) and the rear just hangs on for dear life, while I'd much rather have the rear doing all the work and have the front be light and more neutral.
Fearo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2019, 09:46 AM
  #9  
Tech Addict
iTrader: (28)
 
MaricopaAgent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Maricopa, Az
Posts: 686
Trader Rating: 28 (100%+)
Default

Mike,

You running the underdrive front and rear?
What clutch setup?
center oils?
also not sure of what motor you're running.

Also , to help balance out the front/rear drive, you may want to add some anti squat to add rear forward drive, and possibly a harder rear spring. Especially with the long arm. Should also help the car rotate.

Slow your steering servo down.
MaricopaAgent is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2019, 10:21 AM
  #10  
Tech Regular
iTrader: (15)
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 478
Trader Rating: 15 (94%+)
Default

Right. Iím the same. On the drivers spectrum, Iím on the smoother side. I race intermediate level which only requires consistency and a decent pace to get good results compared to expert and pro levels where you have to go balls out. Usually if I tell myself to get good fuel mileage I stay smooth and donít make too many errors.

Obviously, the setup can can be optimized for your pace compared to X pro setup

couple of other things you can try:

Lower front ride hight (<26mm)
Shorter wheel base (better rotation and drive off the corner)
Less caster (More responsive steering feel)
Dillon71 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2019, 11:15 AM
  #11  
Tech Master
iTrader: (30)
 
Spads11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,176
Trader Rating: 30 (100%+)
Default

This type of scenario is exactly why I chose to start running the new Xray XB8. It gives me the opportunity to run both c hub and pbs type. I have run the c hub in Kyosho cars and love it, but for me (emphasis here on me), is that it doesn't allow me that "switch" in a race where I need to pick my pace up. It did not seem to like being pushed hard at all and almost lulls you into this comfortable slow pace. However, what I find is that c hub is more direct/precise on the front versus pbs having some forgiveness built in. Generalities aside, I think either can be tuned for balance, but takes a lot of time you don't have some help.
Spads11 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2019, 11:48 AM
  #12  
Tech Adept
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 193
Default

Thanks again for all the suggestions guys. Many things written here I have already tried but certainly not all of them.

The problem with some things that simply add steering like caster for instance is that they make the car more twitchy. I don't actually need more steering, I need the rear to be more free, so that it rotates in a controllable way yet still holds traction.

A good example of what I would call a rear steering car is this:

I know he's a pro and makes it look easy but this is sort of what I'm looking for, even though Lutz actually drives really punched and I don't. You can see that the rear is doing most of the work and he just gives light steering inputs. In some of the corners his front wheels are already perfectly straight before he's halfway through the turn. That's what I like doing, only with less throttle and 10 times slower.
Fearo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2019, 11:53 AM
  #13  
Tech Elite
 
morgoth's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,662
Default

Originally Posted by Fearo View Post
It's not that I can't get enough steering into the car, it's just that I want a car that will rotate smoothly without having to use much steering input. Right now I feel like all the business is at the front of the car (power + steering) and the rear just hangs on for dear life, while I'd much rather have the rear doing all the work and have the front be light and more neutral.
Maybe you have tuned towards too much off-power steering that makes the car edgy. If the track is smooth and it has enough grip, add some ackerman and make the rear shock oil a bit ticker (50-100cts) and/or up the rollbar by 0.1 or 0.2mm. This will make the car very confident to drive off-power and you'll be able to steer the car with the throttle on exit. And go up a little on front and rear diff oil. 7-7-5 or 10-7-5 really makes the car shine on med to high grip tracks.
The car will turn in very stable and smooth. And the transition from off-power to on-power will also be smooth. And if you need more steering so you don't have to push it too hard, take a away some rear toe.
Ignore this info if your track is low grip, because that requires a different setup.
morgoth is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2019, 11:57 AM
  #14  
Tech Elite
 
morgoth's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,662
Default

Originally Posted by Fearo View Post
Thanks again for all the suggestions guys. Many things written here I have already tried but certainly not all of them.

The problem with some things that simply add steering like caster for instance is that they make the car more twitchy. I don't actually need more steering, I need the rear to be more free, so that it rotates in a controllable way yet still holds traction.

A good example of what I would call a rear steering car is this:
Ryan lutz Agama 319

I know he's a pro and makes it look easy but this is sort of what I'm looking for, even though Lutz actually drives really punched and I don't. You can see that the rear is doing most of the work and he just gives light steering inputs. In some of the corners his front wheels are already perfectly straight before he's halfway through the turn. That's what I like doing, only with less throttle and 10 times slower.
It's hard to drive like this. And the track has no grip at all. I've driven on a track like that for this weekends nats and my car was super hard to drive. It was fast to throw it around the corners, but it's not easy to it in a controllable way and it requires a lot of practice.
morgoth is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2019, 01:09 PM
  #15  
Tech Adept
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 193
Default

Originally Posted by morgoth View Post
Maybe you have tuned towards too much off-power steering that makes the car edgy. If the track is smooth and it has enough grip, add some ackerman and make the rear shock oil a bit ticker (50-100cts) and/or up the rollbar by 0.1 or 0.2mm. This will make the car very confident to drive off-power and you'll be able to steer the car with the throttle on exit. And go up a little on front and rear diff oil. 7-7-5 or 10-7-5 really makes the car shine on med to high grip tracks.
The car will turn in very stable and smooth. And the transition from off-power to on-power will also be smooth. And if you need more steering so you don't have to push it too hard, take a away some rear toe.
Ignore this info if your track is low grip, because that requires a different setup.
You make a good point. Funny you should mention the diff oil setup, as 10-7-5 is what I have felt most comfortable with on med to high grip. But what would you suggest for low grip with tight and slow 180s?
Fearo is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service