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Dissecting buggies and their performance.

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Dissecting buggies and their performance.

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Old 11-17-2017, 03:21 PM
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Burnnitro, you are wrong: The laws of physics are hardly a matter of opinion...

You can dissect / analyse the properties of various cars, setups, parts etc. without any use of opinion or preference.

A low roll center produce more roll than a high roll center = true or false // a Iow roll center is better than a high roll center = opinion (and even that is only opinion to a certain degree!!).

30tooth - I'm thoroughly impressed by your dedication to setups. I don't always agree, but I always enjoy the read!!
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Old 11-17-2017, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by burnnitro View Post
I'd hate to bursts bubbles but this subject is 100% opinionated. I can give you an example.
In Moto GP (gran prix motorcycle racing) one rider lets use Jorge Lorenzo as my example. he cant seem to get the exact same bike to work for him as his teammate Andrea Dovizioso. who qualifies better and finishes races in higher places.

with that said, I may be able to drive a 15 year old designed car far better than someone with a TLR 4.0. and break less parts because I'm easier on the car than the other guy. my opinion would be the car I'm driving is far superior. then someone else would drive his TLR and blow my doors off. then that guy would claim the TLR is superior. it's all personal preference and opinions.

I also watch guys every weekend run cheap ready to run engines and beat guys with $400 engines.
Nah, you're ignoring all the details. You're comparing two drivers, you can't do that if you intend to know if the car is better.

Originally Posted by Bernard B View Post
Burnnitro, you are wrong: The laws of physics are hardly a matter of opinion...

You can dissect / analyse the properties of various cars, setups, parts etc. without any use of opinion or preference.

A low roll center produce more roll than a high roll center = true or false // a Iow roll center is better than a high roll center = opinion (and even that is only opinion to a certain degree!!).

30tooth - I'm thoroughly impressed by your dedication to setups. I don't always agree, but I always enjoy the read!!
Thanks for the kind words!

Can I ask you something? When you disagree with me please let me know, I can be wrong and would be glad to be corrected.
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Old 11-26-2017, 05:00 PM
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Got my hands on a sweet two 55 gallon drums TLR 8ight 2.0 with EU parts! Going to replace the worn out stuff -bearings, pivot balls and bell ends...

Talked with a fellow TLR racer about the 2.0 and the newer ones, confirmed my observations. TLR drivers when they aren't having issues with the rear end snapping turning in it's exiting the corners. Finicky to setup but he gave me some pointers like front camber -1.5 and rear 3, for a start. So on top of the rear rolling much more or much less than the front we have the geometric issue of how the camber link is positioned, giving weird camber curves.

Things to tackle:
1. modding the front spindles like the 4.0 ones, raise them up and then unscrew the shock rod end to give back down travel.
2. play with rear camber link length and angle, the more I can make it outward the better. Hoping to remove the corkscrew effect, where the front hooks and the car sort of pivot on the front wheels because the rear is in the air, either by geometry or thicker roll bars.
3. I think I know why TLR cars are so hard on arms, anti squat.

Hands on review.
Suspension geometry
Garbage.

Durability
Good, the car is almost unbreakable, screws fit tight and engineering is well executed.

Parts flex and design
Too much flex, bling that isn't needed is aplenty, took TLR 4 tries to make a good radiotray.

Drive train efficiency
Very good actually, the front centre axle pins wear crazy fast.

How easy it is to work on them
Average.

Tuning parts
Springs, roll bars, shock pistons are available.

Overall support, both technical and availability
Good, many people still run them, parts available in the craigslist like site.
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Old 11-26-2017, 06:27 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by 30Tooth View Post
Got my hands on a sweet two 55 gallon drums TLR 8ight 2.0 with EU parts! Going to replace the worn out stuff -bearings, pivot balls and bell ends...

Talked with a fellow TLR racer about the 2.0 and the newer ones, confirmed my observations. TLR drivers when they aren't having issues with the rear end snapping turning in it's exiting the corners. Finicky to setup but he gave me some pointers like front camber -1.5 and rear 3, for a start. So on top of the rear rolling much more or much less than the front we have the geometric issue of how the camber link is positioned, giving weird camber curves.

Things to tackle:
1. modding the front spindles like the 4.0 ones, raise them up and then unscrew the shock rod end to give back down travel.
2. play with rear camber link length and angle, the more I can make it outward the better. Hoping to remove the corkscrew effect, where the front hooks and the car sort of pivot on the front wheels because the rear is in the air, either by geometry or thicker roll bars.
3. I think I know why TLR cars are so hard on arms, anti squat.

Hands on review.
Suspension geometry
Garbage.

Durability
Good, the car is almost unbreakable, screws fit tight and engineering is well executed.

Parts flex and design
Too much flex, bling that isn't needed is aplenty, took TLR 4 tries to make a good radiotray.

Drive train efficiency
Very good actually, the front centre axle pins wear crazy fast.

How easy it is to work on them
Average.

Tuning parts
Springs, roll bars, shock pistons are available.

Overall support, both technical and availability
Good, many people still run them, parts available in the craigslist like site.
I agree, just 2 questions.

Too much flex? Where?

And what unnecessary bling? From what i recall of my 4.0 it comes with no bling at all.

Also id probably say, how easy is it to work on would be, shit. Mainly the diffs, because of their sealed design and being recessed into the chassis means you need to take almost the entire front end apart to get the diff out.

My 2 cents.
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Old 11-26-2017, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by 30Tooth View Post

I was on the fence about if you were kidding or not, I would give the most durable car prize to the AE

As for us Mugen "Fan Boys" I have not had any major breakages since running the first gen MBX7, on through the MBX7TR and the MBX7R... Having come from Kyosho for 13 years prior.

The AE car, yeah perhaps, considerring they cloned the MBX7!

But in all fairness the evaluations will be based on your experience as you say. My driving style is better suited to the Mugen, perhaps as I had also driven the EB4 S3 years ago. The only other current platform aside from the "safe" MP9 that I can wheel is the Tekno.

I drive with more front end bite / traction, as also a forward brake bias, so i can rotate the rear more easy. Not many, other than my son can drive my car, but its how I like it for me, and what suits me

As a note too, i have rebuilt my MBX7 and will run it once again, without the High Cap Diffs etc.
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Old 11-27-2017, 04:21 AM
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i briefly raced an mb6xr after running losi eights. don't like like and moving onto the new tekno.
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Old 11-27-2017, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Gavel View Post
I agree, just 2 questions.

Too much flex? Where?

And what unnecessary bling? From what i recall of my 4.0 it comes with no bling at all.

Also id probably say, how easy is it to work on would be, shit. Mainly the diffs, because of their sealed design and being recessed into the chassis means you need to take almost the entire front end apart to get the diff out.

My 2 cents.
Sorry was late night writing that, I meant the plastic parts flex a bit too much. Unnecessary bling as, CNC parts design (while cool that doesn't do anything performance wise and cost increases), the parts pivoting on bearings like the tri horn (better tolerances would be better than making everything pivot on bearings) and the aero parts like the wickerbill (isn't that efficient) and the body choices (2.0, EU, 3.0, Cab forward, fin, no fin...) it would be better for TLR to improve parts iteratively instead of releasing everything they test.

Had that exact same thing happening to me, I was trying to get the front diff and had to remove everything and the gearbox was really into that recess!

Originally Posted by incubus View Post
i briefly raced an mb6xr after running losi eights. don't like like and moving onto the new tekno.
It had some small setup issues but one of the best Mugen ever, maybe better than the 7 if not for the bump steer.

Originally Posted by 1/8 IC Fan View Post
As for us Mugen "Fan Boys" I have not had any major breakages since running the first gen MBX7, on through the MBX7TR and the MBX7R... Having come from Kyosho for 13 years prior.

The AE car, yeah perhaps, considerring they cloned the MBX7!

But in all fairness the evaluations will be based on your experience as you say. My driving style is better suited to the Mugen, perhaps as I had also driven the EB4 S3 years ago. The only other current platform aside from the "safe" MP9 that I can wheel is the Tekno.

I drive with more front end bite / traction, as also a forward brake bias, so i can rotate the rear more easy. Not many, other than my son can drive my car, but its how I like it for me, and what suits me

As a note too, i have rebuilt my MBX7 and will run it once again, without the High Cap Diffs etc.
Of course not, the Mugens are stout cars, if you crash then the force is transferred to all the parts. Bent hinge pins, oval hinge pin holes, bent chassis and holders... I prefer to break a suspension arm instead of bending metal parts and then claim the car is strong while it's all tweaked.

I don't have much experience with the AE but when you look at them and see Mugen parts (arms, axles for example) you know something is up.

That's where my experience comes, not only I try to drive the cars, I talk with drivers, watch the cars going at the track and then "read" them (tire wear, chassis marks) to have a better understanding of why the car was designed/setup that way. The TLR example is an easy one, everyone is trying to make the rear more supported, my experience with the 2.0 and 3.0 support those claims and I can work towards a fix. The MP9 is said to always have the right amount of grip, the Mugen to be aggressive turning in and so on, my intention is to work with all (I have had almost all of them) and find the limits of them, helping everyone in the process hopefully.

Please report back, I always thought the MBX7 had it's place because while the shocks and diffs now have more volume that isn't enough to make a big change, those oils will take less time to heat but if the heat is in the intended optimal range then there's no problem, the stiffer chassis means the roll distribution will have to be on point more than now, I really don't see the big issue with the plain 7 and I think you will do just fine.

Last edited by 30Tooth; 11-27-2017 at 05:01 AM.
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Old 11-27-2017, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by 30Tooth View Post
Of course not, the Mugens are stout cars, if you crash then the force is transferred to all the parts. Bent hinge pins, oval hinge pin holes, bent chassis and holders... I prefer to break a suspension arm instead of bending metal parts and then claim the car is strong while it's all tweaked.

I don't have much experience with the AE but when you look at them and see Mugen parts (arms, axles for example) you know something is up.

That's where my experience comes, not only I try to drive the cars, I talk with drivers, watch the cars going at the track and then "read" them (tire wear, chassis marks) to have a better understanding of why the car was designed/setup that way. The TLR example is an easy one, everyone is trying to make the rear more supported, my experience with the 2.0 and 3.0 support those claims and I can work towards a fix. The MP9 is said to always have the right amount of grip, the Mugen to be aggressive turning in and so on, my intention is to work with all (I have had almost all of them) and find the limits of them, helping everyone in the process hopefully.

Please report back, I always thought the MBX7 had it's place because while the shocks and diffs now have more volume that isn't enough to make a big change, those oils will take less time to heat but if the heat is in the intended optimal range then there's no problem, the stiffer chassis means the roll distribution will have to be on point more than now, I really don't see the big issue with the plain 7 and I think you will do just fine.
If that was a TLR in your video "the red white and blue buggy" it looked dialed. It also looked to be running the front overdrive...it rotated great at the turn with the "cobblestone-tile", while others where having problems in that turn.
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Old 11-27-2017, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by kaptain crash View Post
If that was a TLR in your video "the red white and blue buggy" it looked dialed. It also looked to be running the front overdrive...it rotated great at the turn with the "cobblestone-tile", while others where having problems in that turn.
The video is not from the day I was at that track.
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Old 11-27-2017, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by 30Tooth View Post
The video is not from the day I was at that track.
sorry ha....but that losi was hooked up
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Old 11-27-2017, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by kaptain crash View Post
sorry ha....but that losi was hooked up
Was at work when I replied to you, now at home and will watch again because I want to know if it really is a TLR. The track is a bit different now, the tabletop is no more and there's a smaller jump before so no sending it in front of the drivers stand.
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Old 11-27-2017, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by 30Tooth View Post
.
Talked with a fellow TLR racer about the 2.0 and the newer ones, confirmed my observations. TLR drivers when they aren't having issues with the rear end snapping turning in it's exiting the corners. Finicky to setup but he gave me some pointers like front camber -1.5 and rear 3, for a start. So on top of the rear rolling much more or much less than the front we have the geometric issue of how the camber link is positioned, giving weird camber curves.
Can you elaborate on this. Are these pointers specific to the 2.0 or do they translate to the 4.0?

If not, do you have any other tips on setup for the TLR 4.0 that can help tame it?

Also, I'd be curious to know what you think about the new rear adjustable hubs they recently came out with.

I enjoy your analysis, thanks for the time.
Attached Thumbnails Dissecting buggies and their performance.-alum-hub-1.jpg  
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Old 11-27-2017, 02:40 PM
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You got any thoughts on the Jq Black edition ?
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Old 11-27-2017, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by cHAmpa View Post
Can you elaborate on this. Are these pointers specific to the 2.0 or do they translate to the 4.0?

If not, do you have any other tips on setup for the TLR 4.0 that can help tame it?

Also, I'd be curious to know what you think about the new rear adjustable hubs they recently came out with.

I enjoy your analysis, thanks for the time.
I want to say they do translate because there isn't a change in geometry with the 4.0, only a front axle height option and now those rear hubs.

By tame it you want to calm down the car reactions? Full setup please, will guide you through the method.

Thanks, I enjoy doing this


About the video, it really is a TLR, looks like a 4.0 but unsure because the video is from October 2015.

Originally Posted by Ofna2005 View Post
You got any thoughts on the Jq Black edition ?
Yes I have one, it's a good car and it will continue to improve. Want to put it head to head with the MP9, the BE is really that good out of the box.
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Old 12-28-2017, 01:54 AM
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Would be interesting to see your thoughts on the NB48.4 given that the platform is significantly different from pretty much all the others.
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