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Kyosho Mini-Z Series

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Old 02-05-2019, 07:41 PM
  #3151  
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The general rule of disc damper setup, for configurations where the damper plate is mounted to the chassis, and the damper post is mounted to the pod (many 90mm configurations are reversed). A stiffer bottom spring will increase steering, while a stiffer top spring will increase rear stability. It is more complicated than that, but that is the general rule. When you include a top shock, this changes the variables slightly, as you can introduce more droop control.

The stiffer top spring will recenter the rear pod a little more. It will also introduce more squat as it will provide a lifting force to the rear pod. The stiffer lower spring as the weight transfers rearward will induce more body roll, and prevent squat. The car will want to stay in the corner more once the weight has transferred and body roll is induced.

I dont see anything wrong with the chassis configuration that you have. I have been testing with a PN 2.5 chassis, PN 98mm LCG v4 pod and a custom LM style disc damper (based on the r246-1352 design). I use the r246-1202/1222 combo on my LM car, and love it. I currently have equal disc damper springs on the LM car, and a stiffer upper spring on the PN based car.

Both use the standard kyosho top shock. I am not a fan of oil shocks at this scale, they leak (all of them), and even the smallest of air bubbles can cause a nightmare of setup. It gets to the point that you are topping off the oil every run to ensure that you dont have any bubbles. When running with a disc damper, you already have damping action, so what you are really looking for is spring more than damping. The top shock can control the rear droop, and longitudinal stiffness of the car. The original shock shaft can be removed and dipped in grease to essentially convert it to a grease shock if you feel the need for longitudinal damping in addition to the roll damping with nothing more than 5 minutes of wrenching and I find is far more consistent than the oil shock. I do like the PN dual damper, in that you can soften the centering force with the rebound damper, but it is not a "needed" part.

My general rule of thumb, if you use a top shock, use an FRP t-plate. If you do not use a top shock, use a carbon t-plate. The carbon t-plate will provide the additional longitudinal stiffness needed and more or less replace the requirement of a top shock. (again, more complicated than that, but this is the simplified version).

Judging that you are racing on carpet, you may be more suited to using a stiffer upper spring to gain rear traction, and adjust the point of rotation in the corner with the top shock spring rate. A shorter stiffer spring that you can preload to the point that you want the on throttle rotation will work better than a longer softer spring for this purpose. I set the preload of the top shock to engage the top disc spring as the car is at rest. This promotes just enough squat as throttle is applied to keep rear stability, while not reducing steering considerably. I generally like as much drive off the corner that I can get.

Many racers that I race with do not use a top shock, or a top disc, and like VERY aggressive steering on and off throttle. I feel that it makes the car a bit of a handful, and I need to babysit the rear end with a setup like that. I like a rear end that when I want to manhandle the car, it will allow me to do so, and not give any fuss. With carpet, drive off the corner is more important than extra steering into the corner in my experience.
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Old 02-05-2019, 08:24 PM
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Thank you all for the LM discussion. I've been working on my LM car and it looks like the shock rubs on the Sauber body when I use the r246-1202/1222 combo. Anyone run into this?

I may just run without the top shock. I currently have a medium T-plate installed. Should I go stiffer if I do this?
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Old 02-05-2019, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mugler View Post
I ran January HFAY with F430GT with +2R/+1F offsets and it was on rails....I had already sorted the rest of the set up on a largerr track before and a while back.
To fit the +2's in the rear in addition to thinning out the inside wheel well I had to cut and raise the diameter of the well also and it has worked perfectly with zero rub. I also know of other racers who had the skills to use a heating gun to widen the rear of the body itself but thats not something I would try.

The F430 is generally considered to be the fastest 94mm body out there ( and is currently re-released by big K) but as a 94mm fan I'm getting curious about the 575 as a novelty since I've been seeing it being mentioned in multiple places lately...are you running the street or GT version?..the street version looks lighter.
What about the 2005 Honda NSX? Is it a good 94mm body?
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Old 02-05-2019, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Kremzeek View Post
Thank you all for the LM discussion. I've been working on my LM car and it looks like the shock rubs on the Sauber body when I use the r246-1202/1222 combo. Anyone run into this?

I may just run without the top shock. I currently have a medium T-plate installed. Should I go stiffer if I do this?
Interesting that you have rub, which damper post arm are you using? I believe that the carbon one should be in use with the 1222 post. Do you have any shims between the post and the top shock? I havent used a Sauber in a while, my only remaining one has quite a bit of modification for various configurations that I have run in the past, so I cannot really comment.

How is the rake of the body when attached to the chassis? Does it look like the rear of the body could be raised slightly to increase clearance? Perhaps front lowered, which would increase rear damper clearance slightly...

Originally Posted by v_squared View Post
What about the 2005 Honda NSX? Is it a good 94mm body?
I never really liked the feel of the 2005 NSX. It has relatively long overhangs, which lead to a dull/sluggish driving experience.

I feel that the F430GT is one of the fastest 94mm bodies for stock class racing, and is good for pro stock as well. I have run it in modified, but feel that it is a little aggressive for that setup and prefer the 360GTC in that class for 94mm as it has a little more rear balance.

I get the feeling that Kyosho has abandoned 94mm bodies for the most part. I typically preferred 94mm configurations for some time, but with many of the latest 98mm released bodies being significantly lighter than the older 94mm bodies, it is difficult to warrant running 94mm currently in stock class racing. I do have a couple 96mm configurations that I would like to test. When racing with Reflex, I had switched to 96mm for most of my 94 and 98mm builds. I could gain more steering on 94mm bodies, and more stability on 98mm bodies, using the various bodies to adjust the car behaviour on a single setup.

Last edited by EMU; 02-05-2019 at 11:36 PM.
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Old 02-05-2019, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by v_squared View Post
What about the 2005 Honda NSX? Is it a good 94mm body?

EMU hit the nail in the head...if your looking for race level performance skip the NSX and for that matter any other 94mm body that a lexan windshield is not available for.


This has been discussed in several places before but in my own experience i would rank the top 3 performing 94mm bodies in descending order as follows:

1) F430GT* most steering and with +2's in the back it turns into a savage beast and in the right hands capable of shaming even high performing 98mm's.

the 2 bodies below can't fit +2 in the rear so already will never match the F430GT

2) F360GT* neutral but still very fast lap times

3) Lexus F430...id say this is a tie with the F360 just different with a lot more steering but for sure less stable...at one point this was the most commonly used race body.


I would never race any other 94mm body against any of the above due to massive gaps in performance, it will just be too big of a handicap to overcome, however for fun the CLK and A4 are a hoot. there's a Z350 also which is fun and I think +2 in the rear but overall including lack of lexan windshield still not competition fast.

* street versions of f430 and f360 are not as fast as the GT versions...they still will rank right after the lexus.


Kyosho did release the f430gt and f360gt about a year ago i think since they started offering it on the sport but not sure how many was in that batch or if still in production..but they're out there for purchase.
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Old 02-06-2019, 01:37 AM
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It is difficult to judge between lexan window and non lexan window which is preferred. It really depends where you race, the type of courses. Over here on the East coast, we have slower corners on most of the layouts, and therefore prefer a little higher CG than high flow/faster corner speed West coast track style. I feel that the standard window can still be competitive here, but on a higher flow layout, it is a necessity to use lexan windows and low CG bodies for the corner speed stability.

I never really liked the 94mm Lexus, although did well with it for stock class. I felt that it actually had less usable steering than the Ferrari bodies. Mostly because in order to gain enough rear stability, you needed to remove a lot of the steering. It was good only for high traction surfaces, and was mostly suited for flow circuits only. It was less popular on the East coast for the difference in track design stated above. I really only used it for regional races which had the high flow designs. Otherwise, I would use the f430/360GTC. I also ran my F40 extensively at 94mm with excellent results, but this was not really a common body. The F50 was preferred to run at 98mm rather than the standard 94mm. As was the 2007 350z JGTC body. The 2005 350z JGTC was great at 94mm, better suited for the east coast style of track, as it made plenty or rotation and rear traction to come out of the slower corners. With this body not available for some time, I am afraid of using mine...
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Old 02-06-2019, 06:41 AM
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If anyone wants a pair of 360GTC bodies I am selling mine ;-)

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Old 02-06-2019, 06:46 AM
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When you guys are talking about 90mm and 94mm vs 98mm you mean running 90mm and 94mm in mid motor configuration right?
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Old 02-06-2019, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by v_squared View Post
When you guys are talking about 90mm and 94mm vs 98mm you mean running 90mm and 94mm in mid motor configuration right?
I am... I use the Atomic or PN 90mm mount for mid motor configuration (atomic with tri damper, reflex with disc damper, atomic is setup for carpet but works ok on RCP). 94mm I use the PN LCG mount, 95/96mm I use the Reflex mount, and 98mm I use mostly the PN LCG v4 flat mount or an LM mount..
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Old 02-06-2019, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by EMU View Post
I am... I use the Atomic or PN 90mm mount for mid motor configuration (atomic with tri damper, reflex with disc damper, atomic is setup for carpet but works ok on RCP). 94mm I use the PN LCG mount, 95/96mm I use the Reflex mount, and 98mm I use mostly the PN LCG v4 flat mount or an LM mount..
With my cars I find that as soon as you convert them to all mid motor they work very well and get similar lap. The 90 and 94 might be a bit more twitchy to drive but drives very nice.

With regard to lexan window just take a dremel to the stock window to get a free upgrade.

Can you even buy Atomic tri damper and Reflex stuff anymore?
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Old 02-06-2019, 08:07 AM
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Have you guys notice that PN 2018 and 2019 weight rules are now 160g? How do you get a miniz down to 160g? 2S lithium and lipo?
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Old 02-06-2019, 09:14 AM
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Default LM Conversion?

Hello Gentlemen,
I am looking to do a LM set up, I would love to keep this as an economy build and use plastic. I have been looking high and low for the MZ304 which is a full kit to go LM but that is not available anywhere that I can find. The second choice would be to get the MZ305 pod and then the MZ302 Diff. I can find the Diff for like $13 or I could get a 3Racing ball diff for $16.....how is the 3Racing diff? But I still cant find the MZ305. I could go aluminum but like I said I would like to keep this economical and afdter using the dampener of the MZ217 MM mount they work well enough.

I would think with the re-release of the Suaber they would make this stuff available.


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Old 02-06-2019, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by LJH View Post
Hello Gentlemen,
I am looking to do a LM set up, I would love to keep this as an economy build and use plastic. I have been looking high and low for the MZ304 which is a full kit to go LM but that is not available anywhere that I can find. The second choice would be to get the MZ305 pod and then the MZ302 Diff. I can find the Diff for like $13 or I could get a 3Racing ball diff for $16.....how is the 3Racing diff? But I still cant find the MZ305. I could go aluminum but like I said I would like to keep this economical and afdter using the dampener of the MZ217 MM mount they work well enough.

I would think with the re-release of the Suaber they would make this stuff available.


Cheers,
Jim
If RC people not bankers ran Kyosho, then yes it would make sense. But it’s run by bankers.
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Old 02-06-2019, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Billy Kelly View Post

If RC people not bankers ran Kyosho, then yes it would make sense. But it’s run by bankers.
True to a certain extent and this is happening in pretty much every industry. There is a good side as well as a bad side to all these sell off and private equity acquisitions but a lot of the time it means that a company will "survive" if they get true business people in too run them. I do note know what sort of financial shape Kyosho was in before the acquisition but it is possible that these "bankers" saved the company from certain doom.

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Old 02-06-2019, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by LJH View Post
True to a certain extent and this is happening in pretty much every industry. There is a good side as well as a bad side to all these sell off and private equity acquisitions but a lot of the time it means that a company will "survive" if they get true business people in too run them. I do note know what sort of financial shape Kyosho was in before the acquisition but it is possible that these "bankers" saved the company from certain doom.

Cheers,
Jim
I do get that having a business person running things is best for business. Just not really happy with the current situation with the EVO. The new ownership group had plenty of time to get things straight before releasing the vehicle.

Enhancing Kyosho Brand And Customer Satisfaction:

Effective April 13, 2018, we are pleased to announce that we made a fresh start under new corporate management setup under sponsorship of Shinsei Rembrandt Partners 1st Investment Limited Partnership (the “Sponsor”), co-managed by Shinsei Corporate Investment Limited, a private equity affiliate of Shinsei Bank, and Rembrandt Investment Co., Ltd..

We would also like to announce that, during the extraordinary shareholders’ meeting followed by the board of directors’ meeting held on April 13, 2018, our new management structure has been confirmed as below. Welcoming 5 (five) outside directors appointed by the Sponsor and taking full advantage of their broad knowledge and talents, we all will strive hard at every level for further accelerating growth of our corporate value.

New Management Structure

President Katsumi Watanabe 
Senior Managing Director Yoshiaki Morimoto 
Outside Director Ippei Matsubara CEO, Shinsei Corporate Investment Limited
Outside Director Takahisa Komatsu CFO, Rembrandt Holdings Co., Ltd.
Outside Director Kazutaka Yamada Managing Director, Shinsei Corporate Investment Limited
Outside Director Masaki Yahagi Deputy Manager, Management Planning Department, Rembrandt Holdings Co., Ltd.
Outside Director Kenji Tanaka CEO, Gordon Brothers Japan Co., Ltd.
Outside Auditor Tetsuya Kubota CPA, Tetsuya Kubota CPA Office
In addition, Akihisa Suzuki, the former president and CEO, will serve as our corporate advisor and provide us with his advices from various aspects, such as product planning, production, marketing, etc., for our company’s rebirth.

We look forward to your continuous support and cooperation in future.

Thank you.”
Use This Link to visit the official Kyosho website, or Click Here for more Kyosho news on BigSquidRC.

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