Celts unified theory of tire foam colors and shore.
12-09-2004, 03:34 AM
#1
Celts unified theory of tire foam colors and shore.
Here is the back of the box that my TRC grey rears came it.
It looks like the greens are only 1 shore softer yet the pinks are 10 shore softer. I guess that was my problem this fall. Too soft fronts.
How are you comming with your sluething?
It looks like the greens are only 1 shore softer yet the pinks are 10 shore softer. I guess that was my problem this fall. Too soft fronts.
How are you comming with your sluething?
12-09-2004, 04:33 AM
#2
GordonFreeman,
Haven't had a chance to do much on my unified list - I've been spending time chasing down stupid human tricks from those that are too inept to use a computer.
Geez, half the people on this planet shouldn't be here.
On a lighter note, shore ratings are absolute, right? In other words, my pink and your pink might be different, but given a shore rating, we agree on that value?
Haven't had a chance to do much on my unified list - I've been spending time chasing down stupid human tricks from those that are too inept to use a computer.
Geez, half the people on this planet shouldn't be here.
On a lighter note, shore ratings are absolute, right? In other words, my pink and your pink might be different, but given a shore rating, we agree on that value?
12-09-2004, 04:42 AM
#3
As long as it is the same "shore" scale. I believe the tires use "shore A" scale.
Here is a quote discussing the shore scales,
"The different Shore scales, A, B, C, D, DO, E, M, O, OO, OOO, OOO-S and R are created by using 7 different indenter shapes, 5 different springs, 2 different indenter extensions an 2 different presser foot specifications. The A and D scales are by far the most commonly used. The M scale uses a very low force spring and was developed to allow testing very small parts like O rings that can not be tested in the normal A scale. Because different materials respond to the test scales in different ways, there is no correlation between the different scales."
Lets hope it just shore A.
And I 'm working on a little gauge myself, we'll see if it has any use other than a paper weight.
Here is a quote discussing the shore scales,
"The different Shore scales, A, B, C, D, DO, E, M, O, OO, OOO, OOO-S and R are created by using 7 different indenter shapes, 5 different springs, 2 different indenter extensions an 2 different presser foot specifications. The A and D scales are by far the most commonly used. The M scale uses a very low force spring and was developed to allow testing very small parts like O rings that can not be tested in the normal A scale. Because different materials respond to the test scales in different ways, there is no correlation between the different scales."
Lets hope it just shore A.
And I 'm working on a little gauge myself, we'll see if it has any use other than a paper weight.
12-09-2004, 05:19 AM
#4
This ain't working too bad.
The gauge simply measure deflection of a small spheroid into the surface for a fixed force.
a value of zero would be a hard flat surface.
I'm getting:
TRC Green Rears 75 medium
TRC Gray Rears 80 softer
TRC Blue Front 43 medium
TRC Pink Front 73 softer
I'll bring it to the track, to see if we can't compare across brands.
The gauge simply measure deflection of a small spheroid into the surface for a fixed force.
a value of zero would be a hard flat surface.
I'm getting:
TRC Green Rears 75 medium
TRC Gray Rears 80 softer
TRC Blue Front 43 medium
TRC Pink Front 73 softer
I'll bring it to the track, to see if we can't compare across brands.
12-09-2004, 11:25 AM
#5
I suppose all I'm really after is a sense of what tire is harder or softer than the next. I mean, the actual shore value is of little use to me, but it would be nice to know what compound would give more more/less traction or more/less steering.
I thought about what you said about traction compound being essentially a crutch for a poorly tuned chassis and, it does of course change throughout an eight minute heat.
Having said that, are you suggesting that someone try running magenta and white for a stock setup in lieu of purple and grey?
If we are saucing that much, shouldn't we try softer tires? Yes, they wear faster, but wouldn't they also be more consistent?
I thought about what you said about traction compound being essentially a crutch for a poorly tuned chassis and, it does of course change throughout an eight minute heat.
Having said that, are you suggesting that someone try running magenta and white for a stock setup in lieu of purple and grey?
If we are saucing that much, shouldn't we try softer tires? Yes, they wear faster, but wouldn't they also be more consistent?
12-09-2004, 01:01 PM
#6
You are right that if you are using sauce as a crutch for more traction, something may be lacking in the setup. But, the idea behind the sauce is to keep your car more consistent throughout a heat. In a 20 lap race, by lap 10 your tires should behave the same way, regardless of whether you put anything on them or not. When you put something on them, it should be to get that traction boost at the beginning of the run, before the tires have heated up or otherwise scrubbed themselves into the track.
This can become tricky at larger tracks where there's a legitimate run line; if you attend the Novak race at Trackside this year, you'll see it for sure. On the foam tires, a layer of rubber bits will accumulate and can actually give you a lot more traction than you'd like at the end of a run. Some cars will start traction rolling, but only in the last minute of a heat.
For tuning, just pick something and always do it. Most pros will always sauce their tires, and will always use the same method. Once you've picked a method, stick with it no matter what. From there you can work on getting the right compound. But sticking with that method is the key to everything: even if it's just a practice run, always do the same thing, otherwise you are shooting yourself in the foot. (The same can be said for motor tuning, battery charging, and so on and so forth... the more consistent you are in your methods, the quicker you'll learn what to change in your set ups).
This can become tricky at larger tracks where there's a legitimate run line; if you attend the Novak race at Trackside this year, you'll see it for sure. On the foam tires, a layer of rubber bits will accumulate and can actually give you a lot more traction than you'd like at the end of a run. Some cars will start traction rolling, but only in the last minute of a heat.
For tuning, just pick something and always do it. Most pros will always sauce their tires, and will always use the same method. Once you've picked a method, stick with it no matter what. From there you can work on getting the right compound. But sticking with that method is the key to everything: even if it's just a practice run, always do the same thing, otherwise you are shooting yourself in the foot. (The same can be said for motor tuning, battery charging, and so on and so forth... the more consistent you are in your methods, the quicker you'll learn what to change in your set ups).
12-09-2004, 01:39 PM
#7
Hey celt the key to running on harder tires for stock is to be more effecient. If you run really soft tires you will scrub speed. With mod it is ok to run softer tires because you are carring more speed in to the corner and you also have the power to over come the soft tires. I guess you can try running pinks in the back and not sause the rear but because you are running softer tires in the back the car might have too much rear traction once the tires get up to temperature. Pruple and gray are a very good balance for stock. The car is dialed from start to finish. All this talk is all theories. Time to put it to the test on Sunday. Shane is right about traction compound.
12-09-2004, 01:52 PM
#8
I think if we could find the "shore" number between different companies, it would help. Of the course the number itself doesn't do us any good, just for relative comparision. I think my little gauge might help us out, experimentally.
I can't really comment on the what to run for stock vs mod. What Vang says makes sense, that the softer tire could scrub more speed, maybe even cause more rolling drag.
Now I look at a TRC FRONT tire box and compare the chart it has to a TRC REAR tire box and they are slightly different. For instance on the FRONT tire chart it says blue is 32, but on the REAR tire box it says that blue is 39. But then alot of the other colors correlate the same, so I don't know what to think now. Not even fully consistant within the same company.
Celt, maybe you just need to go one softer in the rear, so when the compound starts going, it doesn't get as loose as it was, when I drove your car, it was a bit difficult to drive. Sort of like my sedan.
I can't really comment on the what to run for stock vs mod. What Vang says makes sense, that the softer tire could scrub more speed, maybe even cause more rolling drag.
Now I look at a TRC FRONT tire box and compare the chart it has to a TRC REAR tire box and they are slightly different. For instance on the FRONT tire chart it says blue is 32, but on the REAR tire box it says that blue is 39. But then alot of the other colors correlate the same, so I don't know what to think now. Not even fully consistant within the same company.
Celt, maybe you just need to go one softer in the rear, so when the compound starts going, it doesn't get as loose as it was, when I drove your car, it was a bit difficult to drive. Sort of like my sedan.
12-09-2004, 02:16 PM
#9
So bring that thing on Sunday and we can go to town on it.
12-09-2004, 03:19 PM
#10
Vue
Where have you been hiding?
Are you cherry picking again?
Purples
When your ready for a lesson in tires just let me know!
Will you be at the race in G/B on Sat?
Where have you been hiding?
Are you cherry picking again?
Purples
When your ready for a lesson in tires just let me know!
Will you be at the race in G/B on Sat?
12-09-2004, 03:21 PM
#11
Tech Addict
iTrader: (5)
Now that you have talked about just about everything else, you need to get into what the actual rubber alloy your "color" is.
Foam used for RC car tires are mixtures of different kinds of plastic and rubber compounds that result in an alloy when made into foam.
The rubber colors fall into the following groups:
Synthetic rubber (plastics): Blue, green, aqua, yellow, etc
"Exotic" : Black, Grey, White, etc - These are an alloy of synthetic and natural rubber with a relatively low % of natural.
"Natural" : Purple, Pink, Magenta, Red, etc - Higher % natural rubber.
"European or Outdoor" : Very high % natural, generally not rated by color.
What rubber makes your car fast, scrub less and fits your driving style can be affected greatly by the mixture itself. As you increase the % of natural rubber there tends to be less scrub and more tack (on carpet anyway).
Theoretically, the reason purples on the front and greys on the rear of a 1/12 scale car seems to work is that the high natural helps the car turn in better while the lower natural on the rear helps it rotate through the corner without biting so hard that it traction rolls.
Now if I could only drive as good as I can talk.
Foam used for RC car tires are mixtures of different kinds of plastic and rubber compounds that result in an alloy when made into foam.
The rubber colors fall into the following groups:
Synthetic rubber (plastics): Blue, green, aqua, yellow, etc
"Exotic" : Black, Grey, White, etc - These are an alloy of synthetic and natural rubber with a relatively low % of natural.
"Natural" : Purple, Pink, Magenta, Red, etc - Higher % natural rubber.
"European or Outdoor" : Very high % natural, generally not rated by color.
What rubber makes your car fast, scrub less and fits your driving style can be affected greatly by the mixture itself. As you increase the % of natural rubber there tends to be less scrub and more tack (on carpet anyway).
Theoretically, the reason purples on the front and greys on the rear of a 1/12 scale car seems to work is that the high natural helps the car turn in better while the lower natural on the rear helps it rotate through the corner without biting so hard that it traction rolls.
Now if I could only drive as good as I can talk.
12-09-2004, 03:39 PM
#12
Will do Skip109. I have been racing Tueday on and off. I would like to race more but I work early the next day. I also work every Saturday and some Sundays so there goes that. How is your new L4?
12-09-2004, 11:17 PM
#14
Just wait until the kid arrives, then he'll really need a vacation!
12-10-2004, 04:29 AM
#15
What I'm after is to discover why my setup (purple/grey) is hooked up six minutes into the heat and then degrades quickly with the rear end breaking loose violently.
Tires? Not saucing the tires early enough for good penetration? Diff getting hot and slipping?
Strange problem.
Tires? Not saucing the tires early enough for good penetration? Diff getting hot and slipping?
Strange problem.