1/12 scale this Sunday?
11-11-2004, 11:43 AM
#16
It was so fast we can hear the air rushing over the body. That is wild.
11-11-2004, 11:51 AM
#17
The hair on my neck is still standing up. Fast is one thing, but fast and controlled is just amazing - you gotta try it!
Vue has a good tire setup for 1/12 mod - you need a little softer tires for the increased speed into the corners.
But dang, to see somehting rip down the streight and carve into a sweeper defying gravity is a rush.
Vue has a good tire setup for 1/12 mod - you need a little softer tires for the increased speed into the corners.
But dang, to see somehting rip down the streight and carve into a sweeper defying gravity is a rush.
11-11-2004, 12:10 PM
#18
Mr Losi, MARCCA's philosophy, as far as I know, is that a person shouldn't have to buy anything to race. I personally do not have any of this old obsolete technology. I got out of the hobby 10 years ago, in part, because of constant motor maintainence issues. Brushless brought me back into the hobby, perhaps I was too optimistic, I didn't realize how engrained turning motors was to people. I guess I assumed people do this (RC hobby) to race, not to wrench. Maybe it's an age thing. When I was 18 I liked changing the oil in my car (real car) and wrenching and such. Now I find it quite annoying.
Just because the establishment (Trinity) keep pushing brushed motors on us doesn't mean it's the best thing for us. Resistance to change is a natural human phenomenon. From typewritters to computers, slide rules to calculators, brushed to brushless. It will happen, I'm just on a different schedule than the rest of you (some of you). Don't penalize me for that.
Frankly I'm not getting the support I thought I would and I may just have to give up on 1/12 scale.
People, please don't blame MARRCA for any of this, blame me, I am the one pushing for this. MARRCA is not in with any LHS or Novak. I don't care if it's Novak or another brand, as long as it is brushless. ROAR just happens to spec the Novak system, so the writing is on the wall.
Sorry for ranting again, I'll shut up and go away now.
Just because the establishment (Trinity) keep pushing brushed motors on us doesn't mean it's the best thing for us. Resistance to change is a natural human phenomenon. From typewritters to computers, slide rules to calculators, brushed to brushless. It will happen, I'm just on a different schedule than the rest of you (some of you). Don't penalize me for that.
Frankly I'm not getting the support I thought I would and I may just have to give up on 1/12 scale.
People, please don't blame MARRCA for any of this, blame me, I am the one pushing for this. MARRCA is not in with any LHS or Novak. I don't care if it's Novak or another brand, as long as it is brushless. ROAR just happens to spec the Novak system, so the writing is on the wall.
Sorry for ranting again, I'll shut up and go away now.
11-11-2004, 01:12 PM
#19
I was one of those people that was and still am a fan of brushless technology. However, the choice is not that simple in practice...
I made a decision last year that I wanted to progress in my driving skills, and the only way to do that is to compete againt those of higher skill and abilities. Having said that, one travels to Trackside where you can compete against nationally ranked drivers - not one driver but many!
None of these guys run brushless motors, nor at the moment, will they. I can't comment on the correctness of this attitude or their decision, I'm just stating that it is what it is.
So, if you want to compete at that level, guess what you do? I mean, you're not going to change all their minds in one season. It's the chicken before the egg thing...a paradox, sort of. If you don't hold out and run your brushless, the class doesn't get off the ground and if you do holdout, you're racing by yourself.
What's a guy to do?
My gosh, you can't get people to switch from rubber to foam on carpet!! Carpet is clearly superior to rubber on carpet - few would argue that. However, rubber is still the biggest class at Trackside (for the most part).
Repeat the same paragraph above with modified motors - you can get skilled drivers, veterans for years, to race anything other than stock, even though mod is faster and more efficient.
Go figure, people just being people. Don't feel put off, you have a right to your opinion and I agree with 99% of what you're saying. I just want to compete and brushless, as a supported class (I'm not talking about technology now) just isn't there yet.
I made a decision last year that I wanted to progress in my driving skills, and the only way to do that is to compete againt those of higher skill and abilities. Having said that, one travels to Trackside where you can compete against nationally ranked drivers - not one driver but many!
None of these guys run brushless motors, nor at the moment, will they. I can't comment on the correctness of this attitude or their decision, I'm just stating that it is what it is.
So, if you want to compete at that level, guess what you do? I mean, you're not going to change all their minds in one season. It's the chicken before the egg thing...a paradox, sort of. If you don't hold out and run your brushless, the class doesn't get off the ground and if you do holdout, you're racing by yourself.
What's a guy to do?
My gosh, you can't get people to switch from rubber to foam on carpet!! Carpet is clearly superior to rubber on carpet - few would argue that. However, rubber is still the biggest class at Trackside (for the most part).
Repeat the same paragraph above with modified motors - you can get skilled drivers, veterans for years, to race anything other than stock, even though mod is faster and more efficient.
Go figure, people just being people. Don't feel put off, you have a right to your opinion and I agree with 99% of what you're saying. I just want to compete and brushless, as a supported class (I'm not talking about technology now) just isn't there yet.
11-11-2004, 01:23 PM
#20
celt you are correct, on your points....from my point of view, the rubber racers at trackside goes back to his tamyia race roots, they have a strong tcs following there....thence the recluctance to run foam, a couple years ago, the novak swiched from rubber to foam, cause the rest of the country had swiched.....but tacksid ewas still a rubber area....as was marcca...
as far as marcca, what i am saying is that they are being very nice to let you run the motor in any class that there is not more than three of.....
also, i think brushless is the wave of the future also, just not in racing, not right now...i think they are great for guys wth e-maxxes and the like to rumble around the yard, and for hobbiests to play in the street..... i do not know how many times i have seen ppl come into the local hobbie shops with motors that i have no idea how they run....cause they are dirty, and gunked up....
my biggest isue is the obsolete tech. thing....because that is not the case....brushed is here mayby not forever, but it is here for the time being....and if you want to race like celt said, you must run with the fast guys.....
as far as marcca, what i am saying is that they are being very nice to let you run the motor in any class that there is not more than three of.....
also, i think brushless is the wave of the future also, just not in racing, not right now...i think they are great for guys wth e-maxxes and the like to rumble around the yard, and for hobbiests to play in the street..... i do not know how many times i have seen ppl come into the local hobbie shops with motors that i have no idea how they run....cause they are dirty, and gunked up....
my biggest isue is the obsolete tech. thing....because that is not the case....brushed is here mayby not forever, but it is here for the time being....and if you want to race like celt said, you must run with the fast guys.....
11-11-2004, 02:26 PM
#21
Again, I think we mostly agree. Perhaps obsolete is not the right word to describe brushed. I am completely aware that it is the standard right now. But I just can't bring myself to buy something that I know I'm going to have to work on and that I know will not be around in a few years (hopefully). So I am going to hold out and if I have to race against myself, that's what I'll do. If I don't hold out, I'm supporting continued use of what I feel is old technology. I gotta be true to myself.
Doing something, because everybody else is doing it, is not a valid reason for me.
And Celt, I knew it was/is going to be an uphill battle when YOU showed up with a motor lathe!
Doing something, because everybody else is doing it, is not a valid reason for me.
And Celt, I knew it was/is going to be an uphill battle when YOU showed up with a motor lathe!
11-11-2004, 02:44 PM
#22
Time for my long-winded rant about brushless and brushed motors. This is a topic that comes up at work very often, and I hear many opinions about it on a daily basis.
MARCCA's philosophy is truly that, but the problem is that it only works until people become serious about racing. Once you are serious about it, at any level, there need to be rules, and rules, by their very nature, are exclusionary. So you have a choice, either eliminate the rules and just run whatever, or establish rules that will conform to what the majority of people want.
Ideally, you have a brushed motor class and a brushless class. Unfortunately, it sounds like there aren't enough of the latter at MARCCA to make it work. It's not MARCCA's fault, and it's not your fault, you just happen to be caught in a bad spot. Other tracks that are more "hard core" than MARCCA (say, Trackside) would be more emphatic about the rules, as they tend to follow the national trends before adopting them at the local level.
However, with all of that said, brushed motors are NOT an obsolete technology. That's like saying that the gas engines in our full-size cars are obsolete because hybrid cars require less maintenence, produce fewer emissions, and require less energy to operate. Does that make gas engines obsolete? No, not at all. They are just different, and appeal to different people for different reasons. The more you refer to brushed motors as obsolete and worthless, the more people are going to get stuck on the divisive nature of the issue.
There are a number of problems with brushless motors as they relate to racing. Here are three that come to mind:
a) Having good batteries is more important than ever before.
b) The motors are less "precise" because of the lack of magnets, making the driving experience less realistic.
c) Teching the motors requires a complete and thorough disassembly, and handout brushless systems remain impractical due to cost. There are many things you can do to a Novak SS5800 to cheat, none of which are visible or will even be noticed by most people.
I know Trinity is an easy scapegoat for most things, and they are certainly fighting against brushless (for sound business reasons), but they are not the reason that brushless motors are not the primary type of motors being raced today. First, there are other major companies, most notably Orion and to some degree Reedy, who have a lot invested in brushed motor technology. But, more importantly, there is little competition in the US and even global market right now. Novak has the popular system, with a few other lesser known alternatives. Worse yet, none of the systems are comparable in terms of speed.
Where does that leave a sanctioning body? Short of having a $200 handout motor, or getting Novak to supply hundreds of loaner systems--not really practical for them--there is no way to ensure parity among racers the way there is with $30 handout brushed motors. On the mod side, brushless motors simply aren't fast enough to compete with the low-wind motors that are common right now. Plus, with only one manufacturer in the game right now, you lose a very viable sponsorship and team competition element of the racing industry. All of those are important economical reasons that explain why brushless motors have not caught on to the international racing scene, and won't catch on any time soon. And it's not Trinity's fault.
On an entirely unrelated topic, have you guys seen LRP's Sphere ESC? It is a Quantum Competition 2, but it can also control a typical brushless motor, including Novak's SS motors. And it's not much bigger than a regular QC2. So you can put it in your car, and then drop a different motor--brushless or brushed--into your car depending on where you race and what they allow. Now that's progress.
However, Reedy's brushless motor is faster than Novak's, so once again you have a scenario where you have to choose one or the other to race, or run in a rev limited mode. So the problems go on...
Originally posted by GordonFreeman
Mr Losi, MARCCA's philosophy, as far as I know, is that a person shouldn't have to buy anything to race. I personally do not have any of this old obsolete technology. I got out of the hobby 10 years ago, in part, because of constant motor maintainence issues. Brushless brought me back into the hobby, perhaps I was too optimistic, I didn't realize how engrained turning motors was to people. I guess I assumed people do this (RC hobby) to race, not to wrench. Maybe it's an age thing. When I was 18 I liked changing the oil in my car (real car) and wrenching and such. Now I find it quite annoying.
Mr Losi, MARCCA's philosophy, as far as I know, is that a person shouldn't have to buy anything to race. I personally do not have any of this old obsolete technology. I got out of the hobby 10 years ago, in part, because of constant motor maintainence issues. Brushless brought me back into the hobby, perhaps I was too optimistic, I didn't realize how engrained turning motors was to people. I guess I assumed people do this (RC hobby) to race, not to wrench. Maybe it's an age thing. When I was 18 I liked changing the oil in my car (real car) and wrenching and such. Now I find it quite annoying.
Ideally, you have a brushed motor class and a brushless class. Unfortunately, it sounds like there aren't enough of the latter at MARCCA to make it work. It's not MARCCA's fault, and it's not your fault, you just happen to be caught in a bad spot. Other tracks that are more "hard core" than MARCCA (say, Trackside) would be more emphatic about the rules, as they tend to follow the national trends before adopting them at the local level.
However, with all of that said, brushed motors are NOT an obsolete technology. That's like saying that the gas engines in our full-size cars are obsolete because hybrid cars require less maintenence, produce fewer emissions, and require less energy to operate. Does that make gas engines obsolete? No, not at all. They are just different, and appeal to different people for different reasons. The more you refer to brushed motors as obsolete and worthless, the more people are going to get stuck on the divisive nature of the issue.
There are a number of problems with brushless motors as they relate to racing. Here are three that come to mind:
a) Having good batteries is more important than ever before.
b) The motors are less "precise" because of the lack of magnets, making the driving experience less realistic.
c) Teching the motors requires a complete and thorough disassembly, and handout brushless systems remain impractical due to cost. There are many things you can do to a Novak SS5800 to cheat, none of which are visible or will even be noticed by most people.
Just because the establishment (Trinity) keep pushing brushed motors on us doesn't mean it's the best thing for us. Resistance to change is a natural human phenomenon. From typewritters to computers, slide rules to calculators, brushed to brushless. It will happen, I'm just on a different schedule than the rest of you (some of you). Don't penalize me for that.
Where does that leave a sanctioning body? Short of having a $200 handout motor, or getting Novak to supply hundreds of loaner systems--not really practical for them--there is no way to ensure parity among racers the way there is with $30 handout brushed motors. On the mod side, brushless motors simply aren't fast enough to compete with the low-wind motors that are common right now. Plus, with only one manufacturer in the game right now, you lose a very viable sponsorship and team competition element of the racing industry. All of those are important economical reasons that explain why brushless motors have not caught on to the international racing scene, and won't catch on any time soon. And it's not Trinity's fault.
On an entirely unrelated topic, have you guys seen LRP's Sphere ESC? It is a Quantum Competition 2, but it can also control a typical brushless motor, including Novak's SS motors. And it's not much bigger than a regular QC2. So you can put it in your car, and then drop a different motor--brushless or brushed--into your car depending on where you race and what they allow. Now that's progress.
However, Reedy's brushless motor is faster than Novak's, so once again you have a scenario where you have to choose one or the other to race, or run in a rev limited mode. So the problems go on...
11-11-2004, 03:33 PM
#23
Well put futureal. But...
If I can run the 4300 BL for 15 minutes on crap batteries, I don't see how batteries become MORE important. It seems to me they become LESS important? I don't understand. I'm not trying to be arguementative here (although I am most of the time), I really don't understand. When your batteries are dumping near the end of the race, you are playing the compromise of speed/run time. I just took run time out of the equation.
Let me put my foot in my mouth again. I've heard about brushless driving differently than brushed and I don't really understand it. I drove a 19T (borrowed) in my sedan and the 4300 BL and I couldn't really tell much difference. Maybe that just says how bad of a driver I am. I think the only thing I could tell is the lack of off throttle drag. Please explain "less precise" and "less realistic" if possible.
As far as teching the Novak, I believe I read somewhere that a "simple inductance" test assures the windings are correct. I know you can "adjust" timing by rotating the end bell, but I was told by Novak that you should not move it or it will not run right. Is that true or are they just trying to cover thier butts? Just out of curiosity what other practical "cheats" are possible?
And I fully apologize for using the word "obsolete", ok?
If Reedy's brushless comforms to the ROAR spec, then that's great. Have you actually read the detailed ROAR brushless spec? It is very specific.
I was going to make the gasoline analogy myself, but it won't be obsolete for about 20 years. But check this out, instead of investing in new technology, they want to start drilling holes in Alaska to prolong our continued dependence on oil. Goodbye icecaps. Goodbye coastline. I would drive a hybrid, but I don't have a spare $30,000 laying around, so in that case I can't put my money where my mouth is.
If I can run the 4300 BL for 15 minutes on crap batteries, I don't see how batteries become MORE important. It seems to me they become LESS important? I don't understand. I'm not trying to be arguementative here (although I am most of the time), I really don't understand. When your batteries are dumping near the end of the race, you are playing the compromise of speed/run time. I just took run time out of the equation.
Let me put my foot in my mouth again. I've heard about brushless driving differently than brushed and I don't really understand it. I drove a 19T (borrowed) in my sedan and the 4300 BL and I couldn't really tell much difference. Maybe that just says how bad of a driver I am. I think the only thing I could tell is the lack of off throttle drag. Please explain "less precise" and "less realistic" if possible.
As far as teching the Novak, I believe I read somewhere that a "simple inductance" test assures the windings are correct. I know you can "adjust" timing by rotating the end bell, but I was told by Novak that you should not move it or it will not run right. Is that true or are they just trying to cover thier butts? Just out of curiosity what other practical "cheats" are possible?
And I fully apologize for using the word "obsolete", ok?
If Reedy's brushless comforms to the ROAR spec, then that's great. Have you actually read the detailed ROAR brushless spec? It is very specific.
I was going to make the gasoline analogy myself, but it won't be obsolete for about 20 years. But check this out, instead of investing in new technology, they want to start drilling holes in Alaska to prolong our continued dependence on oil. Goodbye icecaps. Goodbye coastline. I would drive a hybrid, but I don't have a spare $30,000 laying around, so in that case I can't put my money where my mouth is.
11-11-2004, 03:55 PM
#24
Batteries become even more important because they make you go faster. The difference between a 1.15V pack and a 1.17V pack becomes more of an issue over a 5-minute race. You could have longer races, but you would be doing it at the expense of speed, AND there would still be guys who could get packs that had both run time AND higher voltage. And if you had longer races, the exact opposite of this whole discussion would occur: you would be forcing brushed motor racers to buy brushless systems.
With a brushed motor, you lay off the throttle on your car and you get a predictable slowdown due to drag on the drive train from the motor's magnets, just like you would get in a full-size car. This slowdown becomes integral to many drivers' driving styles, and on certain tracks, it can be a real pain to drive without it. You can use drag brake at the neutral position on your radio, but the feeling is not the same, it's linear and not exponential. Additionally, brushless motors are bottom-end-heavy, with more torque and initial acceleration than brushed motors. More importantly, though, unlike brushed motors, you can't tune this in or out based on track conditions or driving styles. It is fixed.
I don't believe the Reedy motor conforms to the spec; it is more powerful than the Novak. The Sphere ESC does have the same 24K limiter that Novak's Super Sport did, but I don't think many people race with that. I actually talk to members of the ROAR Executive Committee on a decently regular basis, and they are undergoing this same debate and the same problem. There's no easy answer, and no way to make everybody happy. It's just impossible. Manufacturers will not support a racing class that is dominated by or specific to a single company.
As for gasoline... that's an entirely different topic. There are many more things in our society that use oil than cars. In fact, the entire global economy is underlaid by commercial land, air and sea vessels that are all dependant on oil. It is very easy to see the problems with this, and the negative effects on the environment, but it is very difficult to come up with any way to change it, especially in a capitalist nation.
With a brushed motor, you lay off the throttle on your car and you get a predictable slowdown due to drag on the drive train from the motor's magnets, just like you would get in a full-size car. This slowdown becomes integral to many drivers' driving styles, and on certain tracks, it can be a real pain to drive without it. You can use drag brake at the neutral position on your radio, but the feeling is not the same, it's linear and not exponential. Additionally, brushless motors are bottom-end-heavy, with more torque and initial acceleration than brushed motors. More importantly, though, unlike brushed motors, you can't tune this in or out based on track conditions or driving styles. It is fixed.
I don't believe the Reedy motor conforms to the spec; it is more powerful than the Novak. The Sphere ESC does have the same 24K limiter that Novak's Super Sport did, but I don't think many people race with that. I actually talk to members of the ROAR Executive Committee on a decently regular basis, and they are undergoing this same debate and the same problem. There's no easy answer, and no way to make everybody happy. It's just impossible. Manufacturers will not support a racing class that is dominated by or specific to a single company.
As for gasoline... that's an entirely different topic. There are many more things in our society that use oil than cars. In fact, the entire global economy is underlaid by commercial land, air and sea vessels that are all dependant on oil. It is very easy to see the problems with this, and the negative effects on the environment, but it is very difficult to come up with any way to change it, especially in a capitalist nation.
11-11-2004, 04:04 PM
#25
Originally posted by futureal
On an entirely unrelated topic, have you guys seen LRP's Sphere ESC? It is a Quantum Competition 2, but it can also control a typical brushless motor, including Novak's SS motors. And it's not much bigger than a regular QC2. So you can put it in your car, and then drop a different motor--brushless or brushed--into your car depending on where you race and what they allow. Now that's progress.
On an entirely unrelated topic, have you guys seen LRP's Sphere ESC? It is a Quantum Competition 2, but it can also control a typical brushless motor, including Novak's SS motors. And it's not much bigger than a regular QC2. So you can put it in your car, and then drop a different motor--brushless or brushed--into your car depending on where you race and what they allow. Now that's progress.
on the battery thing, it is not the runtime, properly geared you can go 8-10 min. in racing trim with a stock motor sedan.....it is voltage.....voltage would be(and is now) the name of the game.....the more voltag, the faster the motor spools up, and the higher teh rpm....
11-11-2004, 04:13 PM
#26
I moved my reply to the 1/12 scale brushless thread.
11-11-2004, 06:26 PM
#28
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shane as always nice info, and good commentary on the current state of things!
11-11-2004, 07:15 PM
#29
Let me just restate my goal. I want to race 1/12 scale (or other class, maybe trucks) with the minimum amount of work possible (not trucks), without having to stay all night Sunday night and to have people feel the classes are fair. I'm not telling or asking anybody else to switch.
There has already been talk of shortening the 1/12 races because of time constraints. Adding a 1/12 scale class for 2 or 3 cars is not going to go over very well at all. And what happens when I drive 45 minutes to find out I'm the only one in "open" class there that day? A crappy 45 minute drive back I guess.
I suppose once there are more than 8 1/12 scalers we need 2 heats anyways, though. That aint gonna go over well either.
There has already been talk of shortening the 1/12 races because of time constraints. Adding a 1/12 scale class for 2 or 3 cars is not going to go over very well at all. And what happens when I drive 45 minutes to find out I'm the only one in "open" class there that day? A crappy 45 minute drive back I guess.
I suppose once there are more than 8 1/12 scalers we need 2 heats anyways, though. That aint gonna go over well either.
11-11-2004, 07:42 PM
#30
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Time constraints my ass.
What about that overly pointless "Drifting" class? or the low turn out F1 class?
or maybe starting at 10:00am instead of 12:00pm. I mean theres plenty of fixes for real racing at the track other than trimming 3 min off a damn race. I think Todd was just kidding with that anyway.
There are many ways to get more time to run these events, without having to trim race time down.
What about that overly pointless "Drifting" class? or the low turn out F1 class?
or maybe starting at 10:00am instead of 12:00pm. I mean theres plenty of fixes for real racing at the track other than trimming 3 min off a damn race. I think Todd was just kidding with that anyway.
There are many ways to get more time to run these events, without having to trim race time down.