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How many want to run 1/12 scale brushless Novak 4300? > How many want to run 1/12 scale brushless Novak 4300?

How many want to run 1/12 scale brushless Novak 4300?

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Old 10-16-2004, 12:26 PM
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Default How many want to run 1/12 scale brushless Novak 4300?

I've talked to a few people who want to run this class instead of brushed. If you are interested, maybe we can justify a separate class for Brushless.
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Old 10-16-2004, 02:14 PM
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If you guys want we can just do a open class and run anything you want. I don't really mind.
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Old 10-16-2004, 02:40 PM
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Don't make too many classes.. Last time I was there, I think there were 4 or 5 classes. Stock foam, Stock rubber, f1, drift things, and 18th scale cars. Every class had like 5 people in it, if that. Which means you could break every round and still make the A. Where is the fun in that?

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Old 10-16-2004, 06:42 PM
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If I'm not mistaken, MARCCA rules indicate 3 cars make a class. Knock yourselves out.
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Old 10-16-2004, 10:20 PM
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An open class can hurt things.

Suppose I want to run there, and also compete at Trackside or wherever. I'd like to run stock, since it's cheaper, but now a couple people are using 19T instead. It's very difficult to keep up with a stock, so I now have to buy something else; same with the 4300. In the hands of a competent driver it could be a real advantage.

Just pick the most popular format and stick with it. Like Jason said, this is the best way to get a lot of people running the same class.
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Old 10-17-2004, 10:15 AM
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I'm just wondering who wants to come to the future with me. Instead of continuing to waste your time and money working on motors, we could just have fun racing. That's what I'm about, fun racing.

I agree with Jason, the classes are getting a little out of hand.

I agree with Futureal, I want to have as much fun using as little work and money as possible. I think that happens to be 1/12 scale 4 cell brushless. I don't care what they are running at Milwaukee, at regionals or Nationals. I'm not good enough to compete at that level and there's only one guy at MARCCA who is. So there's really no reason to do what everybody else is doing, if there's a better, cheaper (overall) easier way to have more fun. Futureal said $3/week for brushes, that alone is $150/year just to keep up.

I think we went over this before, I'll just restate the costs:

Brushed (to be competetive):
motors - 1 $30 (how often do you need a new one?)
ESC - 1 $100
Lathe - 1 $150 (does that include a diamond bit?)
Brushes 50/year $150
Total $430


Brushless:
Novak 4300 - 1 $230

And be sure to compare apples to apples, don't compare used prices to new. I'm not an accountant, so to do a proper cost analysis, it should probably be broken down into Fixed costs and ?????(maintanance) costs. But I think it is a completely invalid argument to say that brushed is cheaper. The way I see it, brushed costs more and is more work. Period.

Certainly the fat cat sitting behind the desk at Trinity wants you to keep giving him your money, but you don't have to.

Now maybe your not going to turn your motor or change your brushes that often. So now you are losing power to the guys who do all that work. With everybody on the same Brushless system, the power system is now taken out the equation. It runs the same, run after run, day after day. And you can argue about batteries, sure. But wouldn't you rather it be JUST batteries instead of batteries AND motor?

There is something holding people back from getting with the program and I just can't figure it out. It is so clear to me. Help me out here. I want to understand.
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Old 10-17-2004, 12:21 PM
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gordon...continue with that line of thinking and continue to race at marcca alone......
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Old 10-17-2004, 05:38 PM
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Actually I got a little side tracked there. I should know by now, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. I have no delusions of actually convincing anybody to change their mind about brushed vs. brushless.

So, if I could just get a head count as to who would like to run 1/12 scale 4 cell Novak 4300, that would be great. I'm just trying to figure out what I'm going to do this winter. It's looking like it going to be trucks at this rate.

Thanks
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Old 10-17-2004, 06:58 PM
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My son Jacob is going to start out with my L3 and if he decides to use the Brushless-we only have the 5800 Novaks.
We sent in 2 Cyclones-we were hoping to get them back for 12th scale and as backups.
I think If enough show then stock and open-(anything goes) classes.
I agree that brushless would be Easy to maintain and a more
consistant proformance.
I used my brushless at the carpet challenge(because I had a old stock motor that was very inefficient and much slower to boot than my compitition) I honestly did not have the money to buy a new battery and stock motor to be competative.
I litterally just started runing the car less than a week befor the carpet challenge and without the practice to find out what it took(good batterys and motor) to keep up I was very frusterated so I put the brushless in for the main and had a blast.
If i wanted I could fly by people down the straight,but I held back and just ran for fun.
I beleive that even a 12th scale can be very competitive and controllable with either Novak Brushless systems.
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Old 10-17-2004, 07:22 PM
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Looking to be lots of 1 person classes at Marcca this year, should be nail biter races hehe

Why not run multi class races like LeMans? Yeh having someone with a stocker vs a 6 cell 5800 is tough but thats where the skill comes in... being able to drive a high speed car and being able to navigate SAFELY around slower competitors.

I am excited to see how this all pans out, the Den has a solid 1/12th stock race on Saturdays so I can race for real down there and come and screw around Sunday's at Marcca I guess.

We need a class for people who have different color bodies or different color annodized stuff on their cars you know.. to get the full effect
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Old 10-17-2004, 07:54 PM
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Also Gordon your prices are a bit off I think:

1. a ESC of quality can be found for 40 - 60$

2. Only a pro driver or someone whoís driving is SO good that that is the main thing holding him back would change brushes after every race weekend. I mean ... if you were that good why would you be racing at Marcca anyway hehehe j/k Also your assessment is for 50 brushes... thatís 50 weeks... Umm the winter season is only like 25 - 30 weeks. So divide that by 2 since most people will at least get 2 runs out of a set of brushes and we are at 15. = 45$

From what I have been told its simply, buy them when you need new ones... not on a schedule.

3. I've had 4 people offer lathes for me to use already so I am not too concerned and have not even thought about buying one.

So thatís 290$ cheaper than your assessment.

Now whatís the definition of competitive?

1. Pro level racing where every tool, every part, every battery must be top end perfect stuff? Nats/Regional kinda detail to your hardware?

2. just running at a club track on the weekends for fun?


Personally (and I've had a good year for this to sink in) I am in the hobby to have fun, improve my skills, and just in general fill up some weekend time with an interesting activity. Do I need to win every race to get there? No. And neither do most people. They way I figure it, is if I finish and improve in some way, I am ahead of the game.

Also. Its a class, to be pro level competitive in a set of rules it normally costs money, its always cheaper to just make your own class up out of thin air to save money.

This is not meant to be in offence to you or anyone, just my simple views on why it costs so much in your assessment.
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Old 10-17-2004, 09:08 PM
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Here's another analogy. Do you have a personal transponder or do you use the clubs? I payed $75 for the convenience of a personal. I wouldn't care if the brushed system was free, it's more work, less fun.

I sometimes wonder why we all put tire compound on. Doesn't that just cancel out each others gain? Isn't that just a wasted cost? We could all save money (and maybe sense of smell) if we all agreed not to use tire compound. It's just extra work and a waste of money in my view.

When I say competitive, I mean that a .6 oz ESC is going to be better than a 1.5 oz ESC. An ESC with .001 ohms is going to be better than one with .005 ohms. A freshly turned comm is going to be better than one with several runs on it. New brushes are going to better than cooked brushes. Spec racing is what I call competitive.

My Novak runs the same race after race, week after week. The same.

Just remember I am probably looking at this differently than most. I wanted to do a spec class, but nobody was interested in that either. I just want to race you, not your pocket book (or your black magic guru tuning ability). I want to compete with your driving skill. Maybe this is the wrong hobby for me, because there is so much tinkering involved.

I know you play LAN games and such. What was the worst thing to plague online gaming in the late 90's? Hackors. Why? Because it's not fair, it's not an even playing field. Even if you are playing on a LAN without cheaters, there can still be advantages to the guy with the latest greatest hardware.

I just think 1/12 scale 4 cell Novak 4300 would be the holy grail of RC racing. And I'm obviously not going to get it.
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Old 10-17-2004, 09:27 PM
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Hehe hackers arent an issus at LAN's, because we just take them out back and let 150 people beat the crap outta them

I am not going to argue that brushless isn't supperior.. it is in ALMOST every way. one big way its not.. is support from standards setting organizations like ROAR, the high initial cost, and support from most tracks.

I wont run anything BUT a brushless in the truck... cause I dont want to deal with the headaches. But I do realize that if I am going to run in an actual spec class as other people in many tracks run, I am going to need to work a little harder to get there by using the items they dictate.

When I say competitive, I mean that a .6 oz ESC is going to be better than a 1.5 oz ESC. An ESC with .001 ohms is going to be better than one with .005 ohms. A freshly turned comm is going to be better than one with several runs on it. New brushes are going to better than cooked brushes. Spec racing is what I call competitive.
Umm its not that black or white. Different people see competitive as different things. Some see that as "must win" some see it as "must compete". I am in the compete category. I could care less if I win, because if I need to morgage a house to get to a point I can win and spend 40 hours a week tweaking and practicing... well screw that I should be paid for that kinda work

and yeh I have a personal transponder... because the track I ran at over the summer didnt have handouts.
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Old 10-17-2004, 09:36 PM
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I am not going to argue that brushless isn't supperior.. it is in ALMOST every way. one big way its not.. is support from standards setting organizations like ROAR, the high initial cost, and support from most tracks.
And I think we've hit on the problem. Just because it's the standard doesn't mean that's how we should do it. It's a valid point, but if nobody tries to change it we will still be turning comms and wasting time and money for years to come.

Good candid polite exchange here Clegg, thanks.
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Old 10-17-2004, 09:42 PM
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hehe I cant rip down the man who painted the body I have on my sedan

One reason there may be issues with doing brushless in a standards sense, is the fact that all the brushless motors are SO different from one another. To set up a class just for one Mfg's specific motor probably wouldnt go over too hot. If the Brushless MFG's as a whole came together and each offered a stock motor to a spec tha ROAR agreed to I could see that being the birth of a solid spec class for this kind of racing.

edit: I know a few people who wont use Novak brushless plants anymore due to failures in their past BL motors. That negativity to Novak could affect this kind of series if its the only motor available for it.

Oh and maybe its the fact that even a stock motor is overkill in these lil land missles
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