GordonFreeman

iTrader: (2)

Hello, I just got gack into racing trucks and sedans at MARCCA after a 10 year break. Part of the reason I quit 10 years ago was the seemingly endless battle of motors, brushes, batteries, ect. While it's kind of fun to tinker sometimes, I'd really rather just race with the confidence of a relatively even playing field. It seemed like it often came down to who could spend the most money.

With the Novak SS system, it crossed my mind that we could make a "Novak Spec." class. Since the Novak SS, when set to "stock" mode, limits both accelleration and top speed, this could really remove the motor/battery battle.

I would also suggest that gearing (for each track) and tires could be identical as agreed upon by the racers.

Of course you could take this to an extreme and require absolutely identical cars, but I really think the majority of performance comes from the power characteristics and the tires. Since so many people in the area already have Novak SS systems it would be very cheap to get everyone (whoever wanted to race the spec class) into "spec". Probably the biggest expense would be getting everyone on the same tires.

Who would enforce the rules and make sure everybody is in "spec"? Well, from what I've seen of the great people at MARCCA, the honor system would work just fine.

While I have kind of outlined this "Novak spec" class, it is just an idea at this point. Let's please discuss this if there is any interest at all.

Thanks

GordonFreeman

iTrader: (2)

Jeez Gordon, this sounds like a really neat idea. You could eliminate $90 matched/zapped/electron impingment/Nuclear fusion batteries and just use some $20 el-cheapos. You would eliminate motor maintanance and never worry what that guy was doing to his windings with that turkey baster.

I would say this deserves some discussion. It could be like IROC spec racing!

futureal

Has anybody tried running a sedan at marcca in this mode? I've heard that the Novak techs themselves have said that the system behaves oddly in this mode.

GordonFreeman

iTrader: (2)

I've used it in "stock" mode in Trucks and Sedans. While it's hard to detect the limited acceleration, the RPM limit is noticeable. It must just limit or stop the current when that set RPM is reached. Sometimes you can hear it "bouncing" off the limit just like a real car.

I never noticed any real downside of running in "stock" mode other than less power and top speed.

With the recent increase in Sedan racers, however, it looks like there will probably be three classes. Sportsman (novice Stock), Stock (expert Stock) and Open (anything goes)

I would almost prefer running Stock class, but there have been complains about the Novak Brushless not being fair (in "stock" mode). But I don't get it since I'm not even remotely challanging the fast guys in Stock.

Certainly if you are running in the Stock class and you have a Novak Brushless you should NOT be running it in "open" mode.

Matt M.

iTrader: (26)

where are you bbuying your batts....cause 90 is really high....i have some very good ## and i paid 60.....r you could buy a super sachel for like 75 and get 2 packs of 1.15 or better....,

and i do not have to buy a 275 (or whatever price) brushless motor to only rh\un at one place.....

electronics are cheep... yiou can always find and old cyclone for 30-40 bucks....and stock motors are dirt cheep....

i think brushless are viable but not the answere to all problems

just my .02

TSR6

iTrader: (5)

Yeah, the brushless limitor is a little "different" - They really do kinda "bounce off the chip" just like a real car. I was watching one practive at trackside slightly undergeared, and then later raced against it in the main ( he was running with the stock class ). He would pull me on the backstretch until he hit the limitor, but at the same time, it still wanted to go, it's kinda hard to explain I guess...

futureal

Gordon: mr.losi's right about the batteries, you can get packs that should be fine for club racing in the $45-50 range and top of the line stuff for about $60 these days. The internet market has really driven the prices down with all these new matchers out there.

The problem with the "brushless motors solve everything" myth is that it is still a battery war. The motors themselves are rated as power/volt, so when you have more voltage, you're going faster. So the guys buying expensive batteries still get an advantage.

Most of the "fast" guys will want to run a stock class no matter what, we have tried spec stuff before and it always sounds cool but it is tough to make it happen. There is always one guy who wants to do things different and it's tough to start turning people down.

I think an open class is the best way to go, along with a novice stock and expert stock. I think most of the faster guys will be running in the expert stock class, though.

The other problem with brushless spec is that you are requiring someone to have a $220-$240 system in their car. And what happens if their motor/esc dies? They can't race for a few weeks unless they have enough to buy a spare. The brushed motor/ESC combo is still cheaper, and there are plenty of guys at the track who will true a motor for you if you need it.

GordonFreeman

iTrader: (2)

I think with the Novak in "stock" mode it limits acceleration AND top speed so batteries should not matter unless you have a reall bad pack in which case you might be a bit slower.

Also, since I've been racing truck almost everybody has the Novak Brushless already, but I suppose it has not filtered into sedans yet since there was only singel Stock class.

I do know that quite a few truck guys have had problems with thier Novak but I (cross my fingers) have not. And while it may not be the answer to everything, I do not miss tearing motors apart, truing commutators, screwing with brushes and springs, breaking in new brushes, ect. When it works, it is about as maintainance free as you can get.

I think for right now, it will end up having to be Open class for me. Maybe next year there will be more guys with Novaks and I could bring it up again.

Thanks for the input!

futureal

I don't think it's physically possible to limit the motor's acceleration... the way that ESCs work, they are either sending current or they're not. So the only way to limit anything is just to send less current (more gaps in the pulsing) but then you get a completely unrealistic throttle response. So the limiter is just forcing it to send a certain amount of gaps in the pulse when it tops out, but it's not affecting it otherwise.

The "stock" brushless is indeed faster than a typical stock. It has all the torque of the faster brushless, just less top end. In sedan racing, it's a big advantage.

I think sedan guys are more hesitant to adopt brushless motors because it really does change the entire feel of the car. You need to be able to feather it quite well to be as good with a BMS as you are with a regular brushed motor. In truck racing, this isn't as big of a problem.

Neil

Does the Stock mode on the brushless system limit current and rpm? If it only limited rpm could'nt you just overgear it to get the speed back? Overgearing is not an issue with brushless because heat is not a factor right?

futureal

Heat is still a limiting factor with a brushless, just like a brushed motor. Both the ESC and the motor will heat up; if it hits 200-220F, the thermal shutdown mode will kick in.

There is a limit to how high you can gear it as well, it will take more current to push the motor if it is overgeared, just like a brushed motor. Your runtime will suffer.

Unlike a brushed motor, a brushless motor has the same amount of torque at all points in the powerband. So overgearing to compensate for RPM loss might gain you a bit of top speed, but you will loose a ton getting to that point, and be generally worse off.

I ran my mod brushless car at the Novak race and got to experience all of this firsthand. I geared it at 7.32; I was on an A main run TWICE and both times my batteries dumped at the 5:35 mark (we ran 6 minute heats). The motor came off at about 170F-190F each time. A couple guys hit the shutdown mode in qualifying. I went up to an 8.20 for main and ran one of Matt's batteries, and won the B main going away, with runtime to spare, and come off the track at about 150F.

Matt M.

iTrader: (26)

wow those hurricane cells are good huh shane.....(sorry for the sensless plug for brads stuff)....

GordonFreeman

iTrader: (2)

I just got confirmation from "Charlie" at Novak that the "stock" setting IS acceleration limited as well as RPM.

All you have to do is take the motor out and check for yourself. Nail the throttle in open mode and the motor almost instantly reaches it's top speed. Change to "stock" mode and it takes about 1/3 second to reach it's limited RPM top speed. Doesn't seem like much but it is noticable.

celt

iTrader: (5)

Someone at MARCCA showed up last night with the Novak SS4300 brushless stock system - supposed to be just that, a 27 turn stock motor. If you run this guy on the unlimited setting, you'll swear it's a well tuned stock motor. Nothing more, nothing less. I had a chance to drive this one and one other and it is very smooth and linear.

I'm not suggesting that everyone will go out and buy one of these things, but my point is that it does NOT have that strange, jerky flat spot that the SS5800 has. If you get a chance, try one out - impressive.

Neil

Now that sounds like something I would like. Don't have to buy a motor lathe, Brushes, expensive esc. I would definetly spend the money for the that system if the stock guys did'nt have a problem with it. I don't have the cash for two cars.