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Old 06-12-2007, 01:05 AM
  #16846  
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Originally Posted by Lewd Skywalker
Disclaimer: di po ako nananakot tungkol sa Lithium-Polymer cells, totoo po yan na dapat natin tandaan when using this high-technology, future-of-R/C power source
Takot na ako sa Lipo dati pa sa heli. But, I think the enjoyment of playing eleclic outweighs the danger as long as you're careful.
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Old 06-12-2007, 01:08 AM
  #16847  
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Originally Posted by JPRacing
Takot na ako sa Lipo dati pa sa heli. But, I think the enjoyment of playing eleclic outweighs the danger as long as you're careful.
Very well said.

Pare, may incident ka ba sa T-REX mo dati? hehe. Ako nung nag-umpisa sa Lipo, nagcha-charge ako sa ilalim ng lababo, nasa loob ng palayok yung charger tapos mahabang lead-wires hehe.
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Old 06-12-2007, 01:36 AM
  #16848  
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Originally Posted by marvi
pwede mo siya i balance individually, bale 1 pair of cells at a time. paki check na lang yung previous post ko tungkol sa balancing. nasagot ko na kasi dati yan e, tanong pa ng tanong, syet j/k

yung butas sa ilalim, meron yatang connector na pang EP plane na papasok dyan, better ask rajS or lewd found the pic below kung paano gumawa ng harness for balance charging, pero kailangan yung charger mo merong ganung klaseng harness. yung charger yata nina rajS and lewd, nag-aaccept ng ganyang harness. kung wala kang ganun na harness, better balance them the other way, yung 1 pair of cells at a time
marvi: rine-regla ka nanaman diyan agad. sino kaya mataray? hehehe .... init ng ulo mo eh react ka kaagad about individual balancing e ang tanong ko is kung meron kang alam na harness na pwede gamitin using the port available at the bottom of the cells..... tutal, isasagot mo rin naman pala sa huli! hahahaha bibigay ka rin pala!

yung gulong mo na sorex baka pwede pa yan. binalot mo ba sa zip lock bag bago mo ni-store? try mo nalang siguro.

tanta: we're just planning on using lipo batts. i think the basic rules of racing shouldnt change. so it should be 5min races pa rin. ayoko maprito electronix ko with extended runs. kung gusto ng iba ng longer runs, may nitro naman eh! hahahaha para sakin kasi thrill ng EP is that its more like a sprint while nitro is a marathon. as for what motor, malamang open motor class kasi kung gagawa pa tayo ng lipo stock, 19t at mod, masyadong mahahati at dadami ang race classes. since open mod usually has the least number of racers that will likely be what the lipo class will run - bring your best bakal ika nga! likely thats what mod racers will migrate to anyway since it makes the most sense with BL systems which are currently being used in open mod only. .... op cors, oppinion ko lang 'to. out na ako kung ang lipo class gagawin more than 5 mins ang runs. ayaw ko na mag thermal o umapoy auto ko! hahaha .... i'd rather use the additional capacity para may option ako matakbo packs ko for two heats! pero ideally ang maganda is payagan na rin ang lipo to run with the regular nimh packs. then come to an agreement on weight limits. kaso compromise na ata yung gumawa muna ng separate lipo class as an initial step just to get people into the lipo bandwagon!

Last edited by ROBORAT; 06-12-2007 at 01:49 AM.
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Old 06-12-2007, 01:55 AM
  #16849  
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ayan na! game na lipo!




bawal banggaan pag race. yung bumangga may 1 lap penalty!
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Old 06-12-2007, 03:08 AM
  #16850  
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voodoo: nga pala, just remembered what happened sa rotor mo? ano ba gearing mo last sat? were you monitoring the motor temp? anyway, ang alam ko may sintered 4.5 motors na rin si mang so thats worth saving up for. you wont have problems with shattered rotors once you go sintered.
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Old 06-12-2007, 03:52 AM
  #16851  
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Originally Posted by ROBORAT
voodoo: nga pala, just remembered what happened sa rotor mo? ano ba gearing mo last sat? were you monitoring the motor temp? anyway, ang alam ko may sintered 4.5 motors na rin si mang so thats worth saving up for. you wont have problems with shattered rotors once you go sintered.

rotor got blown. motor and esc temp was ok (within 150degs). was gearing 10fdr lang. the motor was about to give na rin siguro hence the glitching (is that a possible explanation?).

ordered a sintered rotor na. hopefully it arrives by end of the week. sana nga lang rotor lang problem at walang tama ung winding sa can, and worse, the ESC. if not, i'd really have to buy a new motor (and i'll end up with a spare rotor ) or a new ESC.
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Old 06-12-2007, 04:30 AM
  #16852  
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OK! Looks like there's a quorum for lipoly. Race na!
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Old 06-12-2007, 06:29 AM
  #16853  
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medyo mahabang post, but for those about to plunge into lipo, read this...

from team orion

Introduction to Li-Po:

• Do I need a special charger to charge my Li-Po battery?

Yes. With all Li-Po batteries, it is absolutely essential that the correct charging scheme be used. Using improper chargers will cause
permanent damage to the batteries. Please note that there are “so called” Li-Po chargers on the market that do not properly follow
this scheme. We recommend the use of any of our Advantage brand Li-Po capable chargers. If you are unsure of your chargers
capabilities please contact us and we will advise which chargers are recommended. At this time we DO NOT recommend the use of
MRC brand chargers as test have shown them to be potentially damaging to Team Orion batteries.

For the experts: Use only chargers for Li-Po batteries that utilize a CC/CV method with a cut-off function charging at 3A or more.

• What is the maximum charge rate?

Kokam certifies a charge rate of 1C (.1A for every 100mAh ex. 3.2A for a 3200mAh battery) This means the recommended maximum
charge current is 4.8A for 4800’s and 3.2A for 3200’s. The batteries are known to be capable of accepting 2C or even 3C charge rate.
However, this will reduce the useful cycle life. Therefore, Kokam and Team Orion do not recommend using a higher charge rate.
For the experts: The charging regime is CC/CV. This means the batteries begin charging with a continuous current (CC). When a
certain cut-off voltage is reached, the charger will keep the voltage constant (CV) and the charging current will decrease until the full
state of charge is reached. When using a higher rate than 1C, the battery will reach the cut-off more quickly, but at this point it is not
fully charged. After switching to CV, it will take longer to reach the 100% full state.

• Do I need to discharge the packs after use?

NO! The Li-Po pack must, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES, be discharged after use. Unlike with NiMH batteries, doing so will not
“equalize” the pack. Instead, it will permanently damage it.
For the experts: The cut-off voltage for discharge is 2.7V per cell. If discharged below this level, there is an irreversible chemical
reaction that will lead to destruction of the cell. Therefore, we recommend setting a cut-off (if your controller allows to do so) of 3.0V.
NOTE: LiPo batteries do not have a memory effect. You can use it in any charge state without risking loss of capacity or power. In
fact, the useful cycle life will increase if discharged to 80% only.

• How do I store my Li-Po pack?

When not used, the Li-Po batteries should be charged to approximately half or more of its maximum capacity. It should be stored in a
dry area, at room temperature, in the original box. NOTE: Compared to NiMH batteries, Li-Po batteries do not lose their charge quickly
if not charged to 100%. So if a pack is stored at 50% capacity, it can be charged before use in approximately half the time it takes to
charge an empty pack.
For the experts: A 50% charged battery can be stored at temperatures between -4ºF and 95ºF (-20°C and 35°C) for up to 180 days
without the need to recharge.

• Can the Li-Po be used more than once per day?

There is no restriction to the number of uses per day.

• Is the Team Orion Li-Po safe?

Yes. The battery is safe if you closely, and carefully, follow the instructions and handling precautions. However, if you do not respect
the warnings and follow the instructions closely, as with all batteries there is a risk of explosion, fire, smoke emission, and poisoning.
However, Kokam Li-Po is the safest battery in the world based on Kokam’s own safety tests.

• Is it possible to send the Team Orion Li-Po by air?

Yes, Kokam batteries, as long as properly packed and labeled, can be transported by air. The Team Orion Li-Po is not classified as
Dangerous Goods by UN regulations & IATA. It does therefore not have any restriction by UN & IATA. Please note that some carriers
do not accept any lithium containing batteries for air transport. Some customs offices may ask you for an MSDS (Material Safety Data
Sheet), which is available from Kokam or Team Orion upon request.

• How many cells are in the pack?

The 4800mAh pack contains 4 cells in a 2S2P configuration. Set chargers to 2 cells and 7.4v when charging.
The 3200mAh pack contains 2 cells in a 2S1P configuration. Set chargers to 2 cells and 7.4v when charging.

• What are the specifications (C rating, max continuous amps, maximum burst amps, capacity, voltage, etc.) and what do they mean?

- Capacity: The capacity of the 4800 Li-Po is 4800mAh. This means if you discharge a new, fully charged pack with 0.5C (=2.4A), it will typically deliver 4800mAh. Discharging a new, fully charged 3200mAh pack with 0.5C
(=1.6A), it will typically deliver 3200mAh.

- Output Voltage: 7.4v is nominal for any 2 cell or 2S Li-Po battery.,

- C Rating and Amps: As a rule of thumb, the C rate corresponds to a current in Amps divided by the capacity of the battery. So for the
Platinum LiPo 4800mAh, 15C = 72A (72A/4.8A=15) continuous current, 30C = 144A peak current for 10 seconds. This means that if
you make sure battery temperature does not exceed 60°C, the battery can withstand a complete discharge with a continuous current
of up to 72A without being damaged. Short duration currents can be as high as 144A.

For the experts: The battery has been tested by Team Orion to provide short-term pulses (a few milliseconds) of over 250A.
You will feel the “punch”!

• Can I run my car until the battery is dead?

No! Any LiPo battery is sensitive to being over-discharged. The recommended cut-off is 3.0v per cell. The absolute minimum is 2.7v
per cell. If the battery is discharged below 2.7v, permanent damage may occur.

NOTE: If your electronic speed controller allows, set the cut-off to 6.0v. If not, stop driving when your motor loses power, remove the
battery from the car, and recharge it. NEVER let the battery rest for a few minutes and then continue driving without first re-charging.

• How long will my battery last?

Generally, the cycle life of a battery heavily depends on how it is handled and used. Therefore, it is impossible to specify exactly
how long your battery will last. You will get the most from your battery by using the recommended equipment and
charge/discharge methods.

For the experts: Kokam recommends limiting the discharge of the battery to 80% DoD (Depth of Discharge). Under these conditions,
the cycle life of the battery is greater than 1000 cycles.

• How do I dispose of my Li-Po battery?

Generally, each country has regulations concerning recycling of batteries. Please contact your local hobby shop and check for the
specific regulations applied to your region.

• Will my battery go bad if unused for extended periods of time?

No. It can be stored at 73ºF (23°C) for 6 months and still have more than 90% of the initial capacity, at 113ºF (45°C) for 3 months with
more than 80% of initial capacity, and at 140ºF (60°C) for 1 month with more than 80% of initial capacity.

• Is it ok to modify the case with paint?

Only if you are willing to send us a picture of the modified battery! Of course you must make sure that no paint gets inside the battery
case. Furthermore, it is your responsibility to determine whether or not it will damage the case. And sorry, because we cannot know
how you treated the battery during this “process”, we will not be able to accept warranty claims for the modified product.

• How many amps should Li-Po batteries be charged at?

We recommend a maximum rate of 4.8A for the 4800mAh and 3,2A for the 3200mAh.

• What is the capacity of the Li-Poly batteries?

The nominal capacity is listed on top of your battery in mAh.

• Do Li-Po batteries explode if damaged or overcharged?

To our knowledge, any rechargeable battery that is currently on the market has a risk of explosion, fire, and smoke emission
if treated improperly. You are aware that your mobile phone likely has a lithium polymer battery, aren’t you? But you are not afraid to
continue using it because you use the recommended equipment and methods only, right? Kokam and Team Orion have done everything
possible to minimize the risk when the battery is abused or damaged.

• How long will Li-Po batteries last compared to Ni-MH? A few months? Years?

Under normal conditions, Kokam specifies a cycle life of over 1,000 cycles at DoD 80%. However, as noted above, this heavily depends
on how the battery is treated. After over a year of testing Li-Po batteries have shown to provide on average 30%+ more runtime then
Ni-MH batteries of the same capacity.

• Will Li-Po batteries loose punch, go “flat”, or lose runtime after 20 cycles
like normal Ni-MH batteries?

As all of you certainly know, any rechargeable battery will loose some of its capacity in each charge/discharge cycle. For industrial
applications, batteries are considered at the end of their life once they are unable to deliver at least 80% of their initial capacity.
This generally will happen more quickly the higher the charge and discharge currents are. However, Kokam batteries are specifically
designed to deliver high currents. Therefore, Kokam batteries can maintain maximum punch over a much longer time.

For the experts: The chemical reaction inside the battery during charging and recharging is never 100% reversible. That’s why they
lose capacity. Kokam uses a patented manufacturing technology and design to ensure the Team Orion Li-Po cells can continue
delivering high currents.

• How much do the LiPo’s weigh compared to normal Ni-MH batteries?

The Team Orion 4800 Li-Po pack weighs 258g, versus 401 g for NiMH 7.2 volt assembled cells. This is 36% lighter!
The 3200 weight even less at 198g, this is less then half the wieght of a 4200mAh Ni-MH stick pack yet provides the same run time!

• Is there a maximum temperature that if exceeded will hurt future performance?

The Team Orion Li-Po pack is designed for operating temperatures up to 40°C. The pack itself must under no circumstance become
hotter than 140ºF (60°C).

• Does it ‘vent’ like a normal cell would or would it just burst?

Kokam’s lithium polymer batteries do not have a hard steel case like a NiMH battery. Instead, a special aluminum foil encloses them.
Therefore, they do not vent. If the integrity of the battery is compromised, swelling will occur. If the battery is damaged and the case
begins to expand, discontinue use immediately and dispose of properly.

• What is the difference in performance compared to Ni-MH competition cells?

Team Orion Li-Po packs have much more punch and a much higher capacity. Intensive testing has demonstrated duration of 11min 30
sec with a 7-turn Revolution V2 motor running and a 4800mAh Li-Po. On the same track with the same car, motor, and driver, duration
of 7 min 50 sec was achieved with a high-end matched NiMH battery pack. This is an increase of 40%! The lap times where also faster.
Additionally, with a 23-turn JMRCA motor, a 4800mAh LiPo pack achieved 97 laps until the car started slowing while the Ni-MH reached
only 65 laps before slowing - a difference of 33%!

• Do I need a special speed control?

You can use any modern speed control. They are all capable of accepting the Team Orion Li-Po’s 7.4 volts. Speed controls continue
maintaining enough voltage for the receiver and the steering servo. When the car slows down it is safe to stop your car
and re-charge your battery.

• Is the Team Orion Li-Po bigger than my Ni-MH pack?

The Li-Po has the same parametric dimensions as a side-by-side assembled 3700 mAh Ni-MH 6-cell battery. The 3200mAh goes a
step further and mimic’s not only the 6 radial cells along the bottom, but also take the radial tube form of a 6 cell stick pack configuration
to allow even better fitment in most of today’s RTR chassis.

• Is it compatible with the current chassis?

The design of our Li-Po packs allow installation in almost all cars that use side-by-side assembled 6-cell Ni-MH packs as well as many
stick pack designed chassis.

• What is the cost of a Li-Po charger?

Li-Po chargers are available at different costs depending upon the features. You can find Li-Po chargers for the same price, or less
than, Ni-MH chargers. Team Orion’s new Advantage Carbon Edition charger can charge either Ni-MH or Li-Po, and costs about the
same as most Ni-MH only chargers. Team Orion Avionics Advanced Flight Charger is also highly recommended.

• What kind of connector do I use?

Team Orion Gold twisted plugs ORI40003 need to be used on the speed control and the charger. They will accept the higher current
supplied by the Li-Po packs.

• Do I need to add weight to my car to balance it?

Depending on your car set up and local regulations, you may need to balance your car by adding weight or to add weight to reach the
minimum legal weight. Check with your racing organization for current rules regarding minimum weight requirement.

• What is cell balancing and does the Team Orion Li-Po require it?

Cell balancing is a way of ensuring your Li-Po will deliver the maximum performance and capacity over a prolonged period of time.
With Kokam’s unique battery design, balancing is not absolutely required.

the end
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Old 06-12-2007, 06:37 AM
  #16854  
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haba nga fred!

il try to join you guys in that LiPo class kaso sana pag open mod payagan rin ung mga naka ni-mh para hindi tayo magkhiwalay.. hehe
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Old 06-12-2007, 06:48 AM
  #16855  
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jay> tama ka, sana payagan din mga naka non-lipo at non-BL tumakbo sa class na yun. the more, the merrier

marvi> actually I was reading that article from the Team Orion website. I'm convinced, galing ng marketing nila Kung 30C talaga rating ng mga cells nila, OK yun ramdam mo yung punch similar to NiCD/NiMH

wow, excited na'ko makita tumakbo si JP wala ng woooooot woooooootttt, weeeeeeeeeeeeng weeeeeeeeeeeeeeng or baka sssssssssssssssssssss sssssssssssssssss na lang at tire screech ang madidinig
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Old 06-12-2007, 07:05 AM
  #16856  
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Originally Posted by |JayFlores|2
haba nga fred!

il try to join you guys in that LiPo class kaso sana pag open mod payagan rin ung mga naka ni-mh para hindi tayo magkhiwalay.. hehe
jay: that would be the most ideal scenario if you asked me. LiPo and BL for open mod class. spec classes can continue to run brushed and nimh packs in the meatime until LiPo and BL become more accepted in spec racing. but that will be the call of race organizers.
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Old 06-12-2007, 07:07 AM
  #16857  
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eto, promise last looong post na about lipos :d sorry naka all caps, copy paste ko lang kasi, nakakatamad mag edit :d

lipo faq by tom hunt - wram 2007 myths and truths, do’’s and don’’ts about li-poly batteriies

for an electronic copy of this presentation see: www.sefli.org/wram07.htm
by tom hunt

the basics

•about three times the capacity for the same weight of
the best nicd or nimh
•cell nominal voltage = 3.7v (nicd/nimh is 1.2v)
do not exceed voltage = 4.2v
do not discharge below 2.6-2.7v
•“soft” packaged
•cells can be paralleled for increased capacity and load
capability
•need special chargers
•classified by discharge (“c”) rate. a 20c 2000mah pack
should be able to be discharged at 40amps! (don’t believe it
or at least, be skeptical!)

myths and truths

myth - li-poly cells explode without warning.
truth – an improperly charged or damaged li-poly
cell or battery can catch fire, sometimes hours
after the damage or charge, but they do not
explode!

myth - li-poly cells can be damaged if they fall
below 3v/cell.
truth – li-poly cells can be damaged if they fall
below 2.6-2.7v/cell for a significant amount of time
(hours, not minutes!)

myth – a “bloated” li-poly cell can be squashed flat
and reused.
truth – absolutely not! a li-poly cell that has
bloated due to overcharge or excessive discharge
current is an accident waiting to happen!

myth – you need to use a li-poly capable esc with a lipoly
pack.
truth – most types of flying do not require this
special feature (more about this later) .

myth – li-poly cells of the same size, weight and
capacity will all perform the same.
truth – internal construction of the cells dictates
the performance one can expect from a particular
manufacturers li-poly battery.

myth –the manufacturers “c” rate is conservative.
truth – the manufacturers “c” rate is optomistic!
one should not “load” a li-poly pack to more than
75% of the manufacturers “c” rate for good life and
power.

myth – you should always use a “balancing” type charger.
truth – though it will never hurt a pack to “balance” it
for every charge, it is not asolutely necessary,
especially on “healthy” packs.

myth – li-poly cells should not be charged at more than
“1c” (2 amps for a 2000mah pack)
truth – certain balancing chargers can safely charge at
up to 3c or 10amps which ever comes first. charging at
greater than 1c has shown to shorten the life cycles of
“lesser quality” li-poly batteries whether on a balancing
or ordinary charger.

myth – li-poly cells “like” the cold!
truth – li-poly batteries should be stored in a cool dry
place, but need to be warmed-up to be flown. attempting
to fly a “cold” pack might cause the esc to shut the motor
down pre-maturely and cause a crash!

li-poly batteries do’s and don’ts

do not – charge lipo’s with nicd/nimh chargers.
do – charge lipo’s with approved lithium chemistry chargers
(many will also charge lithium ion).

do – charge lipo batteries on “balancing chargers” for best
life and maximum performance.
do not – charge lipo’s unattended – even with the “best”
chargers or in fireproof containers. it’s just not worth
loosing a car or a home!

do – charge lipo’s in a fireproof container and a class rated
fire extinguisher for chemical fires should be nearby.
do not – charge or discharge damaged or “obviously” bloated
batteries! if a battery “smells sweet” the soft case may have
been compromised. it would be wise not to charge a battery in
this condition.

do – place the battery in salt water for a few days to drain
the battery completely, then throw away in trash.

do not – charge lipo’s that have been involved in a
crash until they have been carefully inspected.
do – place the suspect pack in a fireproof container for
many hours before handling.

do not – leave lipo’s plugged into esc’s! most esc’s draw
power from the battery from the moment they are
plugged into the motor battery! a battery left
plugged into the esc can drain well below the 2.6v/cell
in just a day! the switch provided with some esc’s
switches only power to the rx from the esc, not from
the battery to the esc!
do – remove the battery from the model after every
flight or at least disconnect it from the esc!

do not – “cycle” lipo batteries. nothing is to be gained
by “wasting” a cycle.
do – leave lipos at approx 3.6-3.7v/cell when storing for
periods longer than a couple of weeks.

do not – leave an “exhasuted” (a battery no longer able
to fly the model) uncharged for more than the ride
home!
do – charge a “spent” lipo pack to at least 3.7v/cell or
“full” if it is going to be used shortly (within a week or
two). the “self-discharge” rate of a “spent” pack is
magnitudes higher than a fully charged one or “50%”
charged one (approx 3.7v/cell). a pack that was depleted
at the field and not charged as soon as one gets home
could be damaged permenantly within a day or two if
not charged.

do not – trust the manufacturers discharge “c” rate.
do – test the battery on the bench or in your model with a
“whattmeter” and record the voltage of the pack under the
load you expect to fly with (max throttle).
the voltage under this load should not be below 3.3v/cell
for “acceptable” battery effciency. try to hit 3.5-3.7v/cell
for best life.
this usually translates to around 12-15c for even the “best”
20c advertised cells. consistantly asking “20c” from a 20c
advertised pack will seriously reduce it’s total number of
charge/discharge cyles (life cycles).

do not – fly “cold” li-poly batteries. they will not deliver
the expected power when the temperature falls below 50f.
do – warm them on your defroster in your car and do not
install them in your model until you are ready to fly.

EDIT : wala lang, type ko lang makialam sa post ng iba hehehehehe. (tinanggal ko yung caps) - rough512

Last edited by rough512; 06-12-2007 at 05:36 PM.
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Old 06-12-2007, 07:10 AM
  #16858  
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robo: modess
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Old 06-12-2007, 07:53 AM
  #16859  
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marvi: post mo yung link dito na explosive
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Old 06-12-2007, 08:06 AM
  #16860  
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lewd: hehe, parang nakita ko yun, forgot the thread yung binabarena yung lipo tapos sumabog ba yun? grabe, dapat binigay na lang nila sa kin yung batt
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