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Old 12-20-2007, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by JeromeB View Post
There is proof of evolution. There are many creatures or animals that are capable of changing their physical form to adapt to the changing habitat. That is proof that we can see happening with our own eyes, in days, weeks or months.
Macro-evolution is a joke. There is no "scientific" proof whatsoever that prooves it...yet people believe it like its fact, when there is not one such fact or proof...its a mere theory.

Micro-evolution- yes, this is an actual fact and something that is clearly been documented and much evidence abounds...The Torah does speak of this, as well as the Talmud- its biological fact found in the TOrah and Talmud and other writings...not to be confused w/ Macro evolution.
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Old 12-22-2007, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by yyhayyim View Post
Macro-evolution is a joke. There is no "scientific" proof whatsoever that prooves it...yet people believe it like its fact, when there is not one such fact or proof...its a mere theory.

Micro-evolution- yes, this is an actual fact and something that is clearly been documented and much evidence abounds...The Torah does speak of this, as well as the Talmud- its biological fact found in the TOrah and Talmud and other writings...not to be confused w/ Macro evolution.
just because you can't see something happening means it doesn't exist? how closed minded can you get? look at the fossil records. things change.


unfortunatley, natural selection doesn't play as strong a part in human evolution as it once did, and the humans that would otherwise have been eaten by a lion are surviving due to the 'miracles' of the modern world... i say we should release some urban predators. bears and wolves are a good place to start.
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Old 12-22-2007, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by joe of loath View Post
just because you can't see something happening means it doesn't exist? how closed minded can you get? look at the fossil records. things change.
Yet you cannot accept a Creator/G-d? Double standard here?

Micro-evolition is when a species undergoes certain minor changes, but still remains the same species...it never mutates or changes into somthing else...not even in the most simple organism like bacteria. Bacteria never change into something else...they have only shown that they change in some details, but remain the same in essence...there has never been a case where a "step throat" bacteria changes and becomes a "tuberculosis" bacteria...this cannot happen naturally, as explained and reported at length by Genetics and Mircro-Biology experts.

Tests on fruit flies, and other insects and animals, have conclusively shown that genetically manipulated samples, like a one-eyed fly[mutation] mated with a one eyed fly, produce one-eyed offspring, which by the 2nd and 3rd generation, began to return to the normal 2 eye fly! They have tried this with legs, organs, wings, etc...and in all cases, bar none, thousands or trials and experiments over the years...all mutated or defective animals/organisms tested, all fix their defect, and eventually return to normalcy after 3-4 generations. Its part of the DNA code in all...there is an auto fix mechanism in all DNA genetical code, where all organisms, ALL, keep to the genetic code programmed in them, and in the event that something goes wrong, a mutation, which usally is a deformity or anormallity which makes the mutant weaker and more susceptible to decease, the "defective" code they pass on to their offspring, is eventually repaired and return to normal...they have never mutated into better/stronger species, or something all together new species...that's a myth and an outright LIE!!

Fossil records have never shown any proof of natural selection or macro evolution in any way or form...this is a fact, well documented in the most prominent Science journals and Nobel Prize winners...

Fossil records found by paleontologists for the past 100 yrs have never proven any kind of evolitionary process taking place...just the opposite, they have shown that there have never been any kind of species evolving into another species!

fossil records have only shown a mix of all kinds of animals and organisms together, in all strata levels. There have never been found fossils of fish in one strata, and then the next layer of rock[strata] showing the fish with legs, and the next level up showing the fish with legs and teeth looking like some kind of lizard....same thing with birds, and other animals...including humans....

one of the biggest misconceptions and lies of evolutionists is their supposed myth that they have found fossil records showing monkeys, then monkeys stading up, then changing, untill they become more human like, then eventually homosapiens...this is such an outragous lie, that Museums displaying such non-sense have been sued by scientists and have won, since there is no sicentific basis or proof whatsoever for such a myth...yet its taught in the atheistic secular school systems, and many foolishly belive these things blindly...

Wherever there is design, there is intelligence behind that design! This is common sense...the RC car you drive, was designed by someone to full fill a specific purpose...otherwise, it could have never come into being...same goes for everything...trees, plants, animals, plants, galaxies, etc...all have an intricate purpose and reason for being, and all work with amazing design and precision, whic is scientifically and methmatically impossible to have originated by chance, as you've been taught...

THe reason why people dont want to accept a Creator, is because once you admit and accept there's a Creator, it obligates you to follow His laws and decrees, which you and others that drink the evolutionist/atheistic Cool-Aid, are afraid of, and want to live as they please, without G-d's Laws and commanandments to follow....for this reason they'll try to come up with kinds of Excuses and lies to strengthen their faith in their atheisitic religion, as we see here...
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Old 12-23-2007, 08:01 AM
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Old 12-23-2007, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by yyhayyim View Post
Yet you cannot accept a Creator/G-d? Double standard here?

1.Micro-evolition is when a species undergoes certain minor changes, but still remains the same species...it never mutates or changes into somthing else...not even in the most simple organism like bacteria. Bacteria never change into something else...they have only shown that they change in some details, but remain the same in essence...there has never been a case where a "step throat" bacteria changes and becomes a "tuberculosis" bacteria...this cannot happen naturally, as explained and reported at length by Genetics and Mircro-Biology experts.

2.Tests on fruit flies, and other insects and animals, have conclusively shown that genetically manipulated samples, like a one-eyed fly[mutation] mated with a one eyed fly, produce one-eyed offspring, which by the 2nd and 3rd generation, began to return to the normal 2 eye fly! They have tried this with legs, organs, wings, etc...and in all cases, bar none, thousands or trials and experiments over the years...all mutated or defective animals/organisms tested, all fix their defect, and eventually return to normalcy after 3-4 generations. Its part of the DNA code in all...there is an auto fix mechanism in all DNA genetical code, where all organisms, ALL, keep to the genetic code programmed in them, and in the event that something goes wrong, a mutation, which usally is a deformity or anormallity which makes the mutant weaker and more susceptible to decease, the "defective" code they pass on to their offspring, is eventually repaired and return to normal...they have never mutated into better/stronger species, or something all together new species...that's a myth and an outright LIE!!

3.Fossil records have never shown any proof of natural selection or macro evolution in any way or form...this is a fact, well documented in the most prominent Science journals and Nobel Prize winners...

4.Fossil records found by paleontologists for the past 100 yrs have never proven any kind of evolitionary process taking place...just the opposite, they have shown that there have never been any kind of species evolving into another species!

5.fossil records have only shown a mix of all kinds of animals and organisms together, in all strata levels. There have never been found fossils of fish in one strata, and then the next layer of rock[strata] showing the fish with legs, and the next level up showing the fish with legs and teeth looking like some kind of lizard....same thing with birds, and other animals...including humans....

6.one of the biggest misconceptions and lies of evolutionists is their supposed myth that they have found fossil records showing monkeys, then monkeys stading up, then changing, untill they become more human like, then eventually homosapiens...this is such an outragous lie, that Museums displaying such non-sense have been sued by scientists and have won, since there is no sicentific basis or proof whatsoever for such a myth...yet its taught in the atheistic secular school systems, and many foolishly belive these things blindly...

7.Wherever there is design, there is intelligence behind that design! This is common sense...the RC car you drive, was designed by someone to full fill a specific purpose...otherwise, it could have never come into being...same goes for everything...trees, plants, animals, plants, galaxies, etc...all have an intricate purpose and reason for being, and all work with amazing design and precision, whic is scientifically and methmatically impossible to have originated by chance, as you've been taught...

8.THe reason why people dont want to accept a Creator, is because once you admit and accept there's a Creator, it obligates you to follow His laws and decrees, which you and others that drink the evolutionist/atheistic Cool-Aid, are afraid of, and want to live as they please, without G-d's Laws and commanandments to follow....for this reason they'll try to come up with kinds of Excuses and lies to strengthen their faith in their atheisitic religion, as we see here...
1.Evolution is not one species sponaneously 'changing' into another. it is one species slowly changing (as you say, micro evolution) until it is different enough from the other species to be a whole new one.for example, there are more than one kind of bee. all are bees, but are significantly differnt enough to be classed as different species.

2.this is natural selection in action! the one eyed ones have a smaller feild of vision, so can't find theit food as well, can't see predators ETC. and of course maybe the one eyed gene is more dominant than the two eyed gene? genetics is not for the faint hearted, especially people who are silly enough to disregard all the evidence. and of course you ae contradicting yourself here. you say on the one hand, viruses mutate, but on the other, DNA has it's own 'self repair' mechanisms. i'm not sure where it would get the 'source code' form, but i'll leave that to you to decide. and i think it's you making up things to support your shakey evidence.

3. fossil records are patchy at best. a minute proportion of animals are fossilised. but there are still fossils that show the course of human evolution. the fossil 'Lucy' (the ape/man that is the first recorded bipedal animal), and many other fossils. not as you say 'monkeys (they are a separete species altogether).

4.read above comments. i'm not wrting it all out again.

5.ditto

6. hmm, outisde of america, remind me of how many creationist museums there are? not many are there. i wonder why? if you would stop pulling facts out of your bumhole, i might take you seriously. and of course almost all the top level scientists aren't creationist. you ask them why? and they reply: 'because creationism is just so darn stupid (or something similar)'

7. but million to one chances are still possible! many of the things you take for granted are the result of accidents. penecillin for example. i think it's incredibly arrogant to suggest everything has been designed for your own use, or at least for the use of something.

if you can't extrapolate probable fact from probable fiction (note the probable, nothing is certain), then there's no point arguing. i have the backing of maybe 90% of scientists. strange when the same percentage of people in the world are religious?

and actually i'm rather open minded. open mindedness is not accepting everything that is before you. that, my freind, is faith. open mindedness is assimilating the evidence and coming to the probable conclusion. that, is science.
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Old 12-23-2007, 08:05 AM
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Old 12-23-2007, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by joe of loath View Post
1.Evolution is not one species sponaneously 'changing' into another. it is one species slowly changing (as you say, micro evolution) until it is different enough from the other species to be a whole new one.for example, there are more than one kind of bee. all are bees, but are significantly differnt enough to be classed as different species.

2.this is natural selection in action! the one eyed ones have a smaller feild of vision, so can't find theit food as well, can't see predators ETC. and of course maybe the one eyed gene is more dominant than the two eyed gene? genetics is not for the faint hearted, especially people who are silly enough to disregard all the evidence. and of course you ae contradicting yourself here. you say on the one hand, viruses mutate, but on the other, DNA has it's own 'self repair' mechanisms. i'm not sure where it would get the 'source code' form, but i'll leave that to you to decide. and i think it's you making up things to support your shakey evidence.

3. fossil records are patchy at best. a minute proportion of animals are fossilised. but there are still fossils that show the course of human evolution. the fossil 'Lucy' (the ape/man that is the first recorded bipedal animal), and many other fossils. not as you say 'monkeys (they are a separete species altogether).

4.read above comments. i'm not wrting it all out again.

5.ditto

6. hmm, outisde of america, remind me of how many creationist museums there are? not many are there. i wonder why? if you would stop pulling facts out of your bumhole, i might take you seriously. and of course almost all the top level scientists aren't creationist. you ask them why? and they reply: 'because creationism is just so darn stupid (or something similar)'

7. but million to one chances are still possible! many of the things you take for granted are the result of accidents. penecillin for example. i think it's incredibly arrogant to suggest everything has been designed for your own use, or at least for the use of something.

if you can't extrapolate probable fact from probable fiction (note the probable, nothing is certain), then there's no point arguing. i have the backing of maybe 90% of scientists. strange when the same percentage of people in the world are religious?

and actually i'm rather open minded. open mindedness is not accepting everything that is before you. that, my freind, is faith. open mindedness is assimilating the evidence and coming to the probable conclusion. that, is science.
1) Macro-Evolution is a mere myth...not fact! Stop making it seem like its a fact, cause its not...its only a myth, a theory, which has no scientific proof whatsoever...

Micro-evolution is a different story, as stated. Micro evolution is when a species can adapt certain small characteristics- it still remains the same species or creature! It doesnt morph into a new creature or species...this is taught in our Torah 3500 yrs before modern science verified this, so its not something worth debating here...besides, micro-evolution doesnt in any way "proove" that living organism came into being by chance from innanimate matter, like the evolutionist church preaches. It has nothing to do with this at all, as stated previously, there is no scientific proof anywhere that shows that even the simplest organism like bacteria, evolve into some other species, "over time" as the evolitionist desperation myth goes...Just the opposite: many tests on fruit flies and bacteria and other organisms, show that at best, due to the complex DNA code in their genetic make-up and code, organisms have been able to make small changes in some of their detail charateristics, but have never changed or morphed into some new or different organism or species--according to bio-genetics and micro biology, its impossible!!! Even when micro biologists have tried to manipulate the genes of sample organisms and purposely make them defective[mutation], like: one-eyed flies, etc., their own genetic code requires that their mutated and damaged code become repaired and restored to their normal state after 3-4 generations! They have a built-in code which genetically makes then always return to the normal original healthy code, so that organism, due to the laws and rules within the DNA code make-up, will always keep to that program in their system, and never become something else! 2 time Chemistry nobel Prize winner DR. Illya Prigogine has tested and reported on these facts which you can read on: Physics Today 25, pp.23-28...

2) Mutation= a defect in genetic code, in science terms...its a mistake in DNA code transmittion passed down to the new generation...it wasnt copied correctly and therefore you get defective cells and a defective/weaker organism. This can show up as limb deformation, or missing completely, etc...its never been shown that mutations are actual improvements to the species...DNA doesnt work like that. DNA code is a complex code program stirctly adhered to, following it all the time...it contains a self-repair mechanism which is able to repair the bad DNA copy passed down to the new generation progressivly untill the off spring is completely fixed and "healed" and return to normalcy, again following the DNA code programmed in its system. Each organim and each species has its own specific DNA code program, and they DO NOT ditch their DNA code and adopt another "better" code or become something else!!! This has NEVER happened, according to Bio-Genetics and Micro Biology...if anything, according to Micro Biologists and Bio-Chemists, these facts only completely oppose the macro evolutionist myth that there is such a thing as natural selection or evolution of species! Cause organisms simply follow their pre-programmed DNA code- which contain all details of their make up and functions to detail which cant be fathomed by modern scientists, due to its huge complexity and intricacy! Since you close-mindedly and arrogantly claim I have made this up, please check out renown physicist and micro-biologist DR. Lee Spetner's: "Not By Chance:Shattering the Modern THeory of Evolution", chapter 3. See also, Michael Denton's: "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis", pp. 326-329, where you can read about many top notch scientists today who reject evolution based on their new discoveries of how DNA code and genetics work, amogst many things.

3) there are no fossil records showing any evolution of humans!This is a total misconception and lie, for the fact that there are absolutely no transitional[in btween] fossils to be found anywhere on planet Earth, as reported and accounted in the prize winning BIO-Chemistry and Micro-Biology experts book: "the Obvious Proof", pp.90-91, which state quite boldly, that "not being able to find the missing links[transitional fossils- fossils which would show some link between a primate and a human or fish to a lizard, or anything in between)] is terrible professional embarrasment!"

As noted by Dr. W.E. Swinton in his work: "Biology and Comparative Physiology of Birds", vol 1, page 1, states: "...THere is no evidence of stages thru which the remarkable change from reptile to bird was ever achieved"

Concerning plants and insects, world reknown University of Michigan Paleontologist Professor C.A. Arnold, in his introduction to Peleontology, pg 7, states the same thing: that they have not been able to ever trace any kind of evidence showing that there is transitional fosil records to support evolutionary changes! Its all a mere myth and suggestion by Paleotologists which is simply swallowed by the ignorant masses. See also Dr. Michael Behe's "Darwin's Black Box: A Bio-Chemical Challenge to Evolution", Chapters 8-11...

For updated most recent Scientific website, reporting on the lastest Scientic news and discoveries, please visit: www.arn.org

If you're so open minded as you claimed, then you wouldn't have insulted your fellow man who has accepted that there is A Creator of all things. Why would you offend his/her opinion and person, as you did a few posts back?...how can you call something stupid when you your self have not learned about it? Isnt that stupid? Wake up my friend...there are many Scientists who are Creationists...no need to call them stupid just because you ignorantly have been taught to say so about G-d and Creationism in your secular school system.

please visit and open-mindedly read: http://www.y-origins.com/?gclid=CNCX...FQlxOAodxEafXA ...for articles from Scientists who do accept and promote Creationism, and by the way, are not stupid, as you have been taught to say about anyone who profeses Creationism or loves his/her religion.

Also open-mindedly peruse thru: http://www.intelligentdesignnetwork....blications.htm

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Old 12-23-2007, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by jpmn321 View Post
Theres a million times more FACT surrounding evolution than ANY bible, torah, or koran has. FACT and FAITH are polar opposites.
That's where your incredible ignorance of Torah and Jewish history has you seriusly mistaken...

As Jews, we have our history which takes us back almost 3500 yrs...we have records of our history and verifiable by historians and archeologists, both Jews and non-Jews...The Torah is our national book, which WE HEARD as a NATION[Millions of men, women, children, etc]when we stood and saw and heard G-d himself, the Creator, speak to us, millions of us, as a nation, his Torah and commandments. Its not hearsay or something an individual in some corner of the world claimed he heard...NO...We all heard it...millions of Us, weeks after we exited the SuperPower of the world at the Time, EGYPT...who ensalved us for more than 210 yrs. We experienced the bondage and slavery, as well as the awesome signs and wonders our G-d performed before all eyes, the 10 plagues, and how G-d caused us to cross the sea of Reeds, and then keeping us alive for 40yrs in the desert as we sjourned untill He brought us to the Land of Israel. Its our history, and we have witnessed it, millions of us...archeologists and Historians have verified these events and there's nothing to even discuss here...

No need to bash our Torah just because you have no clue of what it says...you probably dont even know hebrew, so you cant even learn it if you tried...so be honest and speak of what you know of...
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Old 12-23-2007, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by yyhayyim View Post
That's where your incredible ignorance of Torah and Jewish history has you seriusly mistaken...

As Jews, we have our history which takes us back almost 3500 yrs...we have records of our history and verifiable by historians and archeologists, both Jews and non-Jews...The Torah is our national book, which WE HEARD as a NATION[Millions of men, women, children, etc]when we stood and saw and heard G-d himself, the Creator, speak to us, millions of us, as a nation, his Torah and commandments. Its not hearsay or something an individual in some corner of the world claimed he heard...NO...We all heard it...millions of Us, weeks after we exited the SuperPower of the world at the Time, EGYPT...who ensalved us for more than 210 yrs. We experienced the bondage and slavery, as well as the awesome signs and wonders our G-d performed before all eyes, the 10 plagues, and how G-d caused us to cross the sea of Reeds, and then keeping us alive for 40yrs in the desert as we sjourned untill He brought us to the Land of Israel. Its our history, and we have witnessed it, millions of us...archeologists and Historians have verified these events and there's nothing to even discuss here...

No need to bash our Torah just because you have no clue of what it says...you probably dont even know hebrew, so you cant even learn it if you tried...so be honest and speak of what you know of...
Is there genuine proof of this? I see little proof in Science or religeon, thats why I am skeptical about the whole thing.

I see that on the Jewish calender, the creation occured almost 5800 years ago, yet there are fossils and there is proof of objects that are far older than that, how is this?
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Old 12-23-2007, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by JeromeB View Post
Is there genuine proof of this? I see little proof in Science or religeon, thats why I am skeptical about the whole thing.

I see that on the Jewish calender, the creation occured almost 5800 years ago, yet there are fossils and there is proof of objects that are far older than that, how is this?
1) There is ample proof from a scientific point of view of a Creator and intelligent Designer of all creation...even from non-religous scientists and Noval Prize winners, and much info about the age of the universe or Creation from prominent scientists today, which we'll quote from ahead....

concerning the Torah and creation being 5800 yrs old...wel'll, what the Torah begins its count from the day Adam,the first man, were created. The Torah tells us this happened 5768 yrs ago...but the planet was in existance before he was craeted and lived in it...in other words, the planet and the universe were created before Adam, from which the clock ticks. How long ago were the the Universe and galaxies, etc in existence before Adam was created, the Torah tells us they were all created within a six day period, counted from sundown to sunrise, night to day- but it doesnt let us know exactly how long those periods were(24 hrs, 100, 1,000 yrs).

Here's a bit of info on these matters from a scientific point of view, so taht all the skeptics and atheistic religion bashers feel at bit more confortable...the folowing are the words of MIT graduate Professor Dr. Gerald Schroeder, author of: "Genesis and the Big Bang"...

"We know that energy -- light beams, radio waves, gamma rays, x-rays -- all travel at the speed of light, 300 million meters per second. At the speed of light, time does not pass. The universe was aging, but time only grabs hold when matter is present. This moment of time before the clock begins for the Bible, lasted about 1/100,000 of a second. A miniscule time. But in that time, the universe expanded from a tiny speck, to about the size of the Solar System. From that moment on we have matter, and time flows forward. The Biblical clock begins here.

Now the fact that the Torah tells us there is "evening and morning Day One" (and not "a first day") comes to teach us time from a Torah perspective. Einstein proved that time varies from place to place in the universe, and that time varies from perspective to perspective in the universe. The Torah says there is "evening and morning Day One".

Now if the Torah were seeing time from the days of Moses and Mount Sinai -- long after Adam -- the text would not have written Day One. Because by Sinai, hundreds of thousands of days already passed. There was a lot of time with which to compare Day One. Torah would have said "A First Day." By the second day of Genesis, the Bible says "a second day," because there was already the First Day with which to compare it. You could say on the second day, "what happened on the first day." But as Nahmanides pointed out, you could not say on the first day, "what happened on the first day" because "first" implies comparison -- an existing series. And there was no existing series. Day One was all there was.

Even if the Torah was seeing time from Adam, the text would have said "a first day", because by its own statement there were six days. The Torah says "Day One" because the Torah is looking forward from the beginning. And it says, How old is the universe? Six Days. We'll just take time up until Adam. Six Days. We look back in time, and say the universe is approximately 15 billion years old. But every scientist knows, that when we say the universe is 15 billion years old, there's another half of the sentence that we never say. The other half of the sentence is: The universe is 15 billion years old as seen from the time-space coordinates that we exist in on earth. That's Einstein's view of relativity. But what would those billions of years be as perceived from near the beginning looking forward?

The key is that the Torah looks forward in time, from very different time-space coordinates, when the universe was small. But since then, the universe has expanded out. Space stretches, and that stretching of space totally changes the perception of time.

Imagine in your mind going back billions of years ago to the beginning of time. Now pretend way back at the beginning of time, when time grabs hold, there's an intelligent community. (It's totally fictitious.) Imagine that the intelligent community has a laser, and it's going to shoot out a blast of light, and every second it's going to pulse. Every second --- pulse. Pulse. Pulse. It shoots the light out, and then billions of years later, way far down the time line, we here on Earth have a big satellite dish, and we receive that pulse of light. And on that pulse of light is imprinted (printing information on light is called fiber optics - sending information by light), "I'm sending you a pulse every second." And then a second goes by and the next pulse is sent.

Light travels 300 million meters per second. So the two light pulses are separated by 300 million meters at the beginning. Now they travel through space for billions of years, and they're going to reach the Earth billions of years later. But wait a minute. Is the universe static? No. The universe is expanding. That's the cosmology of the universe. And that does not mean it's expanding into an empty space outside the universe. There's only the universe. There is no space outside the universe. The universe expands by its own space stretching. So as these pulses go through billions of years of traveling, the universe and space are stretching. As space is stretching, what's happening to these pulses? The space between them is also stretching. So the pulses really get further and further apart.

Billions of years later, when the first pulse arrives, we say, "Wow - a pulse!" And written on it is "I'm sending you a pulse every second." You call all your friends, and you wait for the next pulse to arrive. Does it arrive another second later? No! A year later? Maybe not. Maybe billions of years later. Because depending on how much time this pulse of light has traveled through space, will determine the amount of stretching of space between the pulses. That's standard astronomy.

Today, we look back in time. We see 15 billion years. Looking forward from when the universe is very small -- billions of times smaller -- the Torah says six days. They both may be correct.

What's exciting about the last few years in cosmology is we now have quantified the data to know the relationship of the "view of time" from the beginning, relative to the "view of time" today. It's not science fiction any longer. Any one of a dozen physics text books all bring the same number. The general relationship between time near the beginning when stable matter formed from the light (the energy, the electromagnetic radiation) of the creation) and time today is a million million, that is a trillion fold extension. That's a 1 with 12 zeros after it. It is a unit-less ratio. So when a view from the beginning looking forward says "I'm sending you a pulse every second," would we see it every second? No. We'd see it every million million seconds. Because that's the stretching effect of the expansion of the universe. In astronomy, the term is "red shift." Red shift in observed astronomical data is standard.

The Torah doesn't say every second, does it? It says Six Days. How would we see those six days? If the Torah says we're sending information for six days, would we receive that information as six days? No. We would receive that information as six million million days. Because the Torah's perspective is from the beginning looking forward.

Six million million days is a very interesting number. What would that be in years? Divide by 365 and it comes out to be 16 billion years. Essentially the estimate of the age of the universe. Not a bad guess for 3300 years ago.

The way these two figures match up is extraordinary. I'm not speaking as a theologian; I'm making a scientific claim. I didn't pull these numbers out of hat. That's why I led up to the explanation very slowly, so you can follow it step-by-step.

Now we can go one step further. Let's look at the development of time, day-by-day, based on the expansion factor. Every time the universe doubles, the perception of time is cut in half. Now when the universe was small, it was doubling very rapidly. But as the universe gets bigger, the doubling time gets longer. This rate of expansion is quoted in "The Principles of Physical Cosmology," a textbook that is used literally around the world.

(In case you want to know, this exponential rate of expansion has a specific number averaged at 10 to the 12th power. That is in fact the temperature of quark confinement, when matter freezes out of the energy: 10.9 times 10 to the 12th power Kelvin degrees divided by (or the ratio to) the temperature of the universe today, 2.73 degrees. That's the initial ratio which changes exponentially as the universe expands.)

The calculations come out to be as follows:

The first of the Biblical days lasted 24 hours, viewed from the "beginning of time perspective." But the duration from our perspective was 8 billion years.

The second day, from the Bible's perspective lasted 24 hours. From our perspective it lasted half of the previous day, 4 billion years.

The third 24 hour day also included half of the previous day, 2 billion years.

The fourth 24 hour day -- one billion years.

The fifth 24 hour day -- one-half billion years.

The sixth 24 hour day -- one-quarter billion years.

When you add up the Six Days, you get the age of the universe at 15 and 3/4 billion years. The same as modern cosmology. Is it by chance?

But there's more. The Bible goes out on a limb and tells you what happened on each of those days. Now you can take cosmology, paleontology, archaeology, and look at the history of the world, and see whether or not they match up day-by-day. And I'll give you a hint. They match up close enough to send chills up your spine!!!



2) Let me give you some examples of how scientific dating can get real messy: In 1991, Oxford University’s radiocarbon accelerator unit dated some rock paintings found in the South African bush as being around 1,200 years old. Almost as old as Guess Who. But then an art teacher named Joan Ahrens turned up and proved that they were her students’ paintings—they had been stolen by vandals from her garden in Capetown. A little younger, no?

In Hawaii, volcanic rocks from Mount Kilauea (and don’t ask me how to pronounce that) were dated as being up to three million years old—but in fact they were formed by a volcanic eruption in 1801.

When scientists tried to measure the age of Earth’s atmosphere using the same data that they use for Carbon 14 dating, they found it could only have been here for around 10,000 years. Darn, guys—that figure doesn’t really work. When trees were dated using Carbon 14 dating, the very oldest seemed to be about 8,000 years old. But counting their rings gets you another figure: About 5,700 years! Hmmm…
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Old 12-23-2007, 06:29 PM
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Wow, thanks so much for all that info, it has really made me think.

The time relativity is extremely interesting how you look at it, the calculations make so much sense it shocked me.

Could you give me some examples of the creation of species with time relation to how scientists look back on different ages?
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Old 12-23-2007, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by JeromeB View Post
Wow, thanks so much for all that info, it has really made me think.

The time relativity is extremely interesting how you look at it, the calculations make so much sense it shocked me.

Could you give me some examples of the creation of species with time relation to how scientists look back on different ages?
Yep...the calculations are quite amazing, and cosmologists and astronomers are even more baffled when Quantum Physics is thrown in the mix...

As to your question...would you please be a bit more specific?
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Old 12-23-2007, 09:12 PM
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..."But there's more. The Bible goes out on a limb and tells you what happened on each of those days. Now you can take cosmology, paleontology, archaeology, and look at the history of the world, and see whether or not they match up day-by-day. And I'll give you a hint. They match up close enough to send chills up your spine!!!"...

Can I have some examples of this please
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Old 12-24-2007, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by JeromeB View Post
..."But there's more. The Bible goes out on a limb and tells you what happened on each of those days. Now you can take cosmology, paleontology, archaeology, and look at the history of the world, and see whether or not they match up day-by-day. And I'll give you a hint. They match up close enough to send chills up your spine!!!"...

Can I have some examples of this please
We'll basically what their saying is that you can take the Torah's account fo what happened during those 6 days of creation, and on each day note what was being created and came into being...this should correspond to the order and time/age cosmologists, archeologists, paleontologists, etc., belive these same things came into being. There is no conflict at all between the Torah account and the findings of current modern Science. Little by little science, as it matures and progresses, just keeps confirming what the TOrah revealed to mankind thousands of years ago.

I'll try and find a report or article on this...maybe there's a chart comparing the two...that would be fun to see...but based on the above info, you can easily sit down and make one yourself and compare what scientists claim about those things created on the 6 days. Then work the math and see how close it to the Torah's account, according to the mathematical principles above and you'll be stunned.
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Old 12-24-2007, 09:39 AM
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so, as i acn see from above, some 'divine being' whether it be god, allah, the flying speghetti monster 'magicked' everything?

actually, there is no such thing as macro evolution, and i never said there was! species are midpoints on a scale, like numbers compared to letters. there is nothing halfway between A and B, but there is something halfway between 1 and 2.

i notice you are only choosing questions you can answer? what a copout. i suggest you read the book 'a river out of eden' by richard dawkins. nothing anti religious, as of course, by proffesion he is a genetescist.

and of course creationism is only widely accepted as more than a myth in the USA. so i guess you're all more enlightened than us mere sheep.
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