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ROAR Outlaws D-3.5 17.5 Motor.

ROAR Outlaws D-3.5 17.5 Motor.

Old 01-18-2013, 07:12 AM
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Default ROAR Outlaws D-3.5 17.5 Motor.

ďAfter a great deal of consideration the ROAR Executive Committee has determined that the Trinity D3.5 motor and others based on the D3.5, do not comply with the organizationís required specifications for motors in the 17.5 stock class. The determination is based on the fact that motors being sold are built with wire thatís larger than maximum specification permitted. All of the random samples of the D3.5 based motors during the announced compliance checks tested with wire thatís larger than the maximum dimension. Rule 8.8.4.3.1 states clearly that ďThe three slotted stator must be wound with 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813 mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. Itís on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination.Ē

Ok guys this only effects the D3.5 17.5. I know you guys are running a lot of my motors and I am waiting on official word on what action will be taken. Hopefully this can be worked out between ROAR and the manufacturer. But if not I will stand behind my motors and racers 100%. Cooper Motorsports will replace your motor if this cannot be worked out between ROAR and the manufacturer. Thanks so much for all your support of Cooper Motorsports.

Thanks
Chris Cooper
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:19 AM
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Iím still waiting on Mike to make an official decision on if the motors will be allowed at the Snowbirds. I think they will but if they donít and you have one of my motors and going to the Snowbirds please pm me ASAP so I can get you a replacement motor before the birds.

Here is Trinityís response to ROAR.

Dear Partners and Customers:

At roughly 10pm last evening I received an email from Steve Pond who I believe now is the Secretary of ROAR saying that the D3.5 (17.5 spec motor) is being removed from the ROAR list effective immediately. Please see press release shown on the ROAR website below (it is a little confusing because it implies that the entire D3.5 is in question but upon reading further it is only the 17.5 spec motor)

Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors

After a great deal of consideration the ROAR Executive Committee has determined that the Trinity D3.5 motor and others based on the D3.5, do not comply with the organizationís required specifications for motors in the 17.5 stock class. The determination is based on the fact that motors being sold are built with wire thatís larger than maximum specification permitted. All of the random samples of the D3.5 based motors during the announced compliance checks tested with wire thatís larger than the maximum dimension. Rule 8.8.4.3.1 states clearly that ďThe three slotted stator must be wound with 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813 mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. Itís on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination.
This entry was posted on Thursday, January 17th, 2013 at 11:20 pm and is filed under Approval News,

Trinity's position on this is as follows:

1) We built a brushless motor to the specifications and rules R.O.A.R. gives us and every other motor builder. The rules are not perfect like most any rule made. But Trinity followed the "letter of the law",

2) We have several issues here:

A) The rule reads 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. Itís on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination.

Problem 1: There is no tolerance mentioned anywhere in this rule. It is literally impossible to manufacture any product today, especially in China with a zero tolerance. We have supplied letters from our motor company to ROAR saying that the 20AWG that we use is compliant with their rule and every copper wire that is manufactured throughout the world "has some tolerance". ROAR says wire companies do not use any tolerance and make everything EXACT. Are we to be lead to believe that a Chinese or American wire company that has produced wire slightly larger or smaller in size "in this present world economy" is then "melting it down or throwing it away" This is not practical. It is also not practical to have any rule with zero tolerance!


Problem 2: The above rule is confusing and can be misinterpreted because it was not written correctly. You choose either .813mm or 20AWG....


We chose 20AWG wire which are motor company in China ordered and supplied ROAR with the necessary amount of samples, in the same manner Trinity and every other motor manufacturer operates. We paid for the sample motors and paid the ROAR approval fees (in excess of a thousand dollars). We then wait (like every other motor company for either an approval or an issue). If we receive the approval, we then start the production of motors, just like every other motor manufacturer.


Problem 3: We were issued an approval for the D3.5 (17.5) in April of 2012 and released the first batch of D3.5 spec motors in the R.O.A.R. pipeline and have been selling these motors for over TEN (10) months.......


Problem 4: ROAR has confirmed that they have tested recent motors, through spot-checks as well as the "original samples" that are archived at ROAR (like every other motor manufacturer) and they have concluded that the motors have never been changed by Trinity since the initial approval


Problem 5: ROAR faced a number of competing motor manufacturer's with complaints about the motor and ROAR then purchased what they say...."more sophisticated measuring equipment to test motors" than what was available when they tested Trinity and every other motor submitted for the past several years.


Problem 6: They are now determining that they feel our motor (17.5) does not meet their specification and have pulled this "ONE MOTOR" 17.5 Spec off the list with no warning, no grace period and no discussion with the manufacturer.


Our position here is "WE HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG" and this obviously can "ARBITRARILY HAPPEN AGAIN" to any one of you if your competitors yell loud enough. WE DID NOTHING WRONG. WE COMPLIED TO THEIR SPEC, PAID THEIR FEES, WENT THROUGH THEIR APPROVAL PROCESS, MADE THE D3.5 MORE AVAILABLE TO MORE SOURCES THAN ALL THE OTHER MOTOR MANUFACTURER'S COMBINED!


How do we go forward and our concerns:


A) Our main concern is that this is an "ARBITRARY DECISION" ROAR made due to increased pressure from outside manufacturer's (who should have nothing to do with running the organization). This is a MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST


B) ROAR is assuming NO RESPONSIBILITY for APPROVING THIS MOTOR AND ALLOWING PEOPLE TO BUY THIS FOR OVER 10 MONTHS WHEN WE CHANGED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FROM THE ORIGINAL APPROVAL


C) ROAR has shown no responsibility for clubs and organizers, distributors, dealers and consumers who purchased this motor "BASED ON THEIE APPROVAL" since they run their establishments on ROAR rules.


D) ROAR has offered NO SOLUTION TO THE MATTER other than they are possibly working a new spec for a motor but have no details or information about this.


In closing I am hoping to speak with the new ROAR President at some point today to go over these points and to see what if anything can be resolved. This press release is just to inform you of what is happening and my promise to you that we will not allow our company, our partners (OEM'S) and our customers suffer without a fight if a "realistic solution can be reached". We are seeking relief from this ruling for the following indisputable reasons:


1) We were granted ROAR approval by Bob Ingersol, The ROAR technical director and the ROAR Executive and ROAR has confirmed we have not changed the motor since it was approved 10 Months AGO!
2) ROAR saying they have purchased new equipment which obviously changes the way they approve motors is no concern of ours....it is just a confirmation that they feel their approval process was not up to the task. This is not the fault of any motor manufacturer who complied to ROAR's approval rules
3) This is an arbitrary decision with no solution given due to increased pressure from competing manufactures (WHICH IS A MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST) if several parties can exert this type of pressure over a volunteer organization.


Again I am hoping some peaceful and realistic resolution for all parties can be reached quickly. Trinity does not want to seek an immediate injunction or relief from this 'ruling" and force it to be decided in the courts system.


I thank-you for listening and for your continued support for Trinity.


Thanks..Ernie




Ernest N. Provetti
Chief Executive Officer
Trincorp, LLC, Team Trinity / Epic
P.O. Box 520747
Longwood FLORIDA 32752-0747
United States
Phone 386-668-7771
Email: [email protected]
www.teamtrinity.com
Exclusive Importer for Trinity, Revtech, Team Epic Inc. and TRC
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:36 AM
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What that sucks
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:14 AM
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Sorry to all of those affected. Especially right before the Birds. Cooper, I love my Thunder Power motors you built! Still looking for a 13.5 TP for my 12th scale though.

Thanks for your support in this!
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:12 PM
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Good thing we don't run ROAR sanctioned races! Let em run anyways.
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:43 PM
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Bunch of Lance Armstrong wannabe's. My mother always told me the truth "WILL" always come out at some point.

Of course just kidding. This really does suck. Just another speed bump in life. We will get past it.

Cooper what a stand up man for doing what you can to assist the race in the time of confusion.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by MCSEDanny View Post
Bunch of Lance Armstrong wannabe's. My mother always told me the truth "WILL" always come out at some point.

Of course just kidding. This really does suck. Just another speed bump in life. We will get past it.

Cooper what a stand up man for doing what you can to assist the race in the time of confusion.
Danny...Lance...5 letter first names, 2nd letter is an A...might be a coincidence...

Danny runs a cheater motor, beats me, then retires... coincidence...

I proposition that Danny give me all of his trophies, Hudy tools, and tire warmers as compensation for being a cheater and a jerk.
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by orcadigital View Post
Danny...Lance...5 letter first names, 2nd letter is an A...might be a coincidence...

Danny runs a cheater motor, beats me, then retires... coincidence...

I proposition that Danny give me all of his trophies, Hudy tools, and tire warmers as compensation for being a cheater and a jerk.
He retired again??!??!?!? Thats like the second time this year.
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Old 01-19-2013, 01:52 PM
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Yeah danny has decided to start racing RC Weed Wackers He will back during carpet season which is cool with me. Look forward to racing you again buddy.
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Old 01-19-2013, 04:58 PM
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Just saw on FB that the Birds will allow the 3.5's.
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Old 01-19-2013, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rcbo View Post
Just saw on FB that the Birds will allow the 3.5's.
I am not surprised. They probably figure that nearly everyone has already bought this motor or will buy it before the event as it was considered one of the fastest motors.
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Old 01-19-2013, 07:52 PM
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kinda explains why when i had the d3.5 13.5 in my buggy why everyone thought i was cheating bc it was so fast. it was as fast as my 7.5 just not the bottom end.
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Old 01-21-2013, 07:48 AM
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Ok, Mike has approved the motors to be used at this years Snowbirds. So we all should be ready to go. Now we will just wait and see what happens between Trinity and ROAR.
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