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Old 08-11-2017, 12:47 PM   #46
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you still have to tech for the handouts...and a teardown will happen either before, or when somebody cries foul....

and yes $40 isnt alot, but when you already spent all the things you mention, isnt that just one more thing....look at it this way, you already spent $100 on your new motor, nice new shiny motor...but you want me to run this handout for the weekend, and give you money for it, and then go race my new shiny at the club level?....

so I still spent the $140 dollars !!!!
Yes, I understand there would still be tech. I was speaking specifically to the motor teardown everyone has to do before even racing. As for the people that cry foul I don't see how that changes regardless of the path race organizers takes regarding motors. People are going to bitch regardless.

As for cost, I'm not trying to minimize it or invalidate anyone's argument. We all have different budgets but when I look at what I spent to run the Indoor Champs last year (and I'm local to that race) a $40 motor wouldn't even touch what I paid in sales tax that weekend. That is why it is tough for me to believe this would be much if any impediment to someone who is willing to travel and pay for a room for a few nights. Do I want the extra expense? Of course not. That said I think FOR ME it is a small and worthwhile price to pay. Definitely not a deal breaker.

Interesting conversation. Some well presented points for and against.
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Old 08-11-2017, 12:49 PM   #47
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what do you do with the motor after the race?...are you going to run it at the club level?.

do you have a motor already, and what did you pay for it?
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Old 08-11-2017, 12:54 PM   #48
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Thats your choice.

There is nothing stopping you from running that 40$ hand out at club races other than pride...and it might not be ROAR approved.
true, and KK, I did...guess what?...it isnt ROAR approved...and it wasnt fast enough to even keep up with any locals....

and to try and convert the rest of the club that have new gen motors is a waste of time...Im suppose to ask my locals to go buy a slow motor so we can all be slow together?...nevermind the fact they already spent $$$$ on their new gen motor
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Old 08-11-2017, 12:58 PM   #49
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so my good motor $150, is for my club racing....and my $40 handout is for major events?...
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Thats your choice.

There is nothing stopping you from running that 40$ hand out at club races other than pride...and it might not be ROAR approved.
And by self admission, it's not the motor holding guys back, as long as the handout is not a sub-par motor.

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true, and KK, I did...guess what?...it isnt ROAR approved...and it wasnt fast enough to even keep up with any locals....

and to try and convert the rest of the club that have new gen motors is a waste of time...Im suppose to ask my locals to go buy a slow motor so we can all be slow together?...nevermind the fact they already spent $$$$ on their new gen motor
That's why the promoters choice of motors is critical
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:01 PM   #50
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what do you do with the motor after the race?...are you going to run it at the club level?.

do you have a motor already, and what did you pay for it?
Not sure if you are responding to me. If not my apologies.

I use standard spec TSR motors. You know about what they cost.

If it handout isn't competitive with my club motor I'd probably give it to a new guy, keep it for an emergency spare or toss it in the trash, much like I do the spec tires I would have to buy and likely never run at a club races.

The $40 I spend buys me more than a motor. It gets me the convenience of not messing with motor teardown unless I got lucky enough to win something, in which case I'd be happy to do a teardown. It buys me some motor parity with the rest of the racers. It overall simplifies a lot of what is a very busy weekend.

The worst aspect to me is it seems wasteful.
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:05 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
true, and KK, I did...guess what?...it isnt ROAR approved...and it wasnt fast enough to even keep up with any locals....

and to try and convert the rest of the club that have new gen motors is a waste of time...Im suppose to ask my locals to go buy a slow motor so we can all be slow together?...nevermind the fact they already spent $$$$ on their new gen motor
I get the feeling that you might have been racing much at the national level when brushed motors were the thing. What your saying is exactly what happened back then. If you went to a race that had hand out motors and that motor was not a "Fast" motor compared to your normal motor you had left over motors when you got back home to club race. You can look at the cost of the motors and I can say that even 150$ for a fast brushless motor that lasts a whole season or more is way cheaper than the amount of money I would have spent on brushed motors. From my POV of having been around long enough to have lived through that its almost comical to see people complaining now about it. I get it I do its your money and you have every right to spend it how you see fit and then complain about spending it later...lol. Like I said there isnt a magic pill to take or solution that is going to solve all the issues. Locally and Nationally are two separate instances and should be looked at as such. What works at your local track and what you need to do there to keep the doors open and people coming in doesnt always jive with what goes on at a national event.
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:15 PM   #52
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okay Ken...is it safe to say the $30-$50 motor we purchase will be just as good as the motor we curently have right now....and if so, why would a company make a cheaper version of a motor with the same performance as their good motor...wouldnt that make the good motor go away?

but we all know that almost all companys right now have a New Gen motor at $100 or more( come on Reedy )...why would they hurt their own pockets with a cheap version at $40, when the $100 is a great sale...If you think about it...they wont...there is no way TSR,Trinity,Motiv or anybody else going to hurt themself by selling a low cost knock-off with the same peformance...cause if they did, what racer will buy the high dollar motor...the $40 is just as fast
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:16 PM   #53
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Hand-out motors will only create an illusion of parity, assuming all the motors have been verified as equal. They can't equalize setup, driver ability, and all the other variables involved in this hobby. They also can't fix poor sportsmanship, bad marshaling, meek race directors, inadequate tech, etc.

I do agree that in some classes at specific big events, a hand-out motor might be a good thing. But I don't think racers should ever have to pay for a hand-out motor. The motor manufacture should be more than willing to provide their motors at no cost as a normal cost of marketing and/or research and develop. At a minimum it could be an opportunity for a manufacturer to show how good their product is for the hobby and possible club racing. Imagine the headline saying how close the racing was at a big event because XYZ's motors were so good (in a specific class). But unfortunately that won't happen because many of the manufacturers know how to use our insecurities to get us to spend more money on the "motor of the moment".

The reality is that anyone willing to participate/travel to a large event knows that racing isn't 100% fair. The best thing any race organizer can do is be informed about the things that might be creating an unfair advantage and implement rules to lessen/eliminate any advantages (up to not allowing specific equipment).

In the end, I would much rather race at an event with strict tech/race director knowing that even the best racers will be disqualified for minor infractions than at an event that makes me pay more money to use a hand-out motor.
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:21 PM   #54
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I get the feeling that you might have been racing much at the national level when brushed motors were the thing. What your saying is exactly what happened back then. If you went to a race that had hand out motors and that motor was not a "Fast" motor compared to your normal motor you had left over motors when you got back home to club race. You can look at the cost of the motors and I can say that even 150$ for a fast brushless motor that lasts a whole season or more is way cheaper than the amount of money I would have spent on brushed motors. From my POV of having been around long enough to have lived through that its almost comical to see people complaining now about it. I get it I do its your money and you have every right to spend it how you see fit and then complain about spending it later...lol. Like I said there isnt a magic pill to take or solution that is going to solve all the issues. Locally and Nationally are two separate instances and should be looked at as such. What works at your local track and what you need to do there to keep the doors open and people coming in doesnt always jive with what goes on at a national event.
2006 offroad and then VTA started 4 cell 27t...1st National I met you 2008 or 2009. But thats another example....I remember Dirla Skeen and EA coming back from big races with all these motors and spend hours tuning and cutting brushes ect...then selling them to us...after that paying $10 to have it tuned every week cause I didnt have the equipment to do so...that was a lot of $$$ over a year...and still no promise of a "good" one....numbers looked good compared to the other 3 I had, cause 3 quals, 3 motors, best for the 8 min main...so 4 motors for club race...OMG....

we must be crazy...who has the answer, come on, somebody...anybody
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:23 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
okay Ken...is it safe to say the $30-$50 motor we purchase will be just as good as the motor we curently have right now....and if so, why would a company make a cheaper version of a motor with the same performance as their good motor...wouldnt that make the good motor go away?

but we all know that almost all companys right now have a New Gen motor at $100 or more( come on Reedy )...why would they hurt their own pockets with a cheap version at $40, when the $100 is a great sale...If you think about it...they wont...there is no way TSR,Trinity,Motiv or anybody else going to hurt themself by selling a low cost knock-off with the same peformance...cause if they did, what racer will buy the high dollar motor...the $40 is just as fast
it will be just as safe as saying the current motor you have now will be as good as the version that is released right before the race in an open brand format. Remember the current rules and resistance values are still open to adjustment.
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:26 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by IndyRC_Racer View Post
Hand-out motors will only create an illusion of parity, assuming all the motors have been verified as equal. They can't equalize setup, driver ability, and all the other variables involved in this hobby. They also can't fix poor sportsmanship, bad marshaling, meek race directors, inadequate tech, etc.

I do agree that in some classes at specific big events, a hand-out motor might be a good thing. But I don't think racers should ever have to pay for a hand-out motor. The motor manufacture should be more than willing to provide their motors at no cost as a normal cost of marketing and/or research and develop. At a minimum it could be an opportunity for a manufacturer to show how good their product is for the hobby and possible club racing. Imagine the headline saying how close the racing was at a big event because XYZ's motors were so good (in a specific class). But unfortunately that won't happen because many of the manufacturers know how to use our insecurities to get us to spend more money on the "motor of the moment".

The reality is that anyone willing to participate/travel to a large event knows that racing isn't 100% fair. The best thing any race organizer can do is be informed about the things that might be creating an unfair advantage and implement rules to lessen/eliminate any advantages (up to not allowing specific equipment).

In the end, I would much rather race at an event with strict tech/race director knowing that even the best racers will be disqualified for minor infractions than at an event that makes me pay more money to use a hand-out motor.
If the motors are tested prior to the race you do have some essential motor parity. Much like spec tires, which we know aren't all 100% identical, give some rubber parity. Overall traction is still dictated by a group of variables. As to all the other things you mentioned there is no reason they can't be done in addition to using a handout motor. They are not mutually exclusive.
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:29 PM   #57
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it will be just as safe as saying the current motor you have now will be as good as the version that is released right before the race in an open brand format. Remember the current rules and resistance values are still open to adjustment.
Ill take that...makes sense

so in your opinion, will ROAR benchmark the spec motors like with 25.5

or will they drop the ball
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:33 PM   #58
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you know, this could be a way to get fast and sponsored drivers out of spec classes?
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:38 PM   #59
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What brought all this up?

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Old 08-11-2017, 01:46 PM   #60
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Amen Man!
Man Enough about the motor doesnt matter its only the racer BS!
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